Doing my best Libertarian impersonation: 
Don’t fall into the genetic fallacy again!!
- snerk *
Why? Why is it so outrageous to think that a group of people with similar interests acts collectively toward those interests?
Please Chumpsky, can you answer my question? at least if you don’t know you can say so, and I won’t ask again.
It’s not outrageous to think that the U.S. and the Venezuelan elite could be in a conspiracy to topple Chavez, but because all the Left websites that claim that it’s all a US/CIA conspiracy never seem to invest any effort in possibly looking for other causes, they lose credibility in my book. They’re absolutely convinced that it’s all the fault of the Conspiracy, and they never bother to look anywhere else for causes.
DDG there is no other cause for anything that happens.
Duh.
Sua
This reminds me of the argument put forward by supporters of O.J. Simpson who were miffed that the cops had not put forth any effort to find the “real killers.” And, it is equally as valid.
Chumpsky
I will have to assume that you have no idea, thus you will not be able to use your so beloved argument: “The opposition is trying to remove Chavez from power because he is a president that has helped the working class, and the higher classes are afraid to lose their power”.
What are you trying to say with this?
If I may.
The Chump man has this point going for him: the Latin countries by and large have a far more rigid class system than we do. The only exception to this rule that pops into my head right now is Costa Rica which, like us, mostly had a history of small farmers in its past and therefore missed being dominated by large landowners.
The upper classes in Latin America refer to American rich people as “coyotes”. This is because their wealth is mostly old money because of the rigidity of their class system, so the nouveaux riches of el Norte, who haven’t had the time to cultivate all the social skills that the idle rich of Latin America cultivate, strike them as gauche in the extreme.
So I can see where that newspaper report quoted above by Easy Phil is probably true. It’s also probable, even likely, that CIA money is being used to finance the anti-Chavez forces.
Even Chumpsky manages to find an acorn every once in a while, if only by accident.
Latin America is a large continent pal. That rule doesn’t neccesarily apply to all the countries, at least not equally. I’d like to hear more on that rigid class system. If it means that people have less chance of acquiring money I think you are right, a situation inherent to the economic reality of the third world. It you meant class per se I am afraid I will dissagree with you, if there is a place where money talks that is Latin America. It only takes a bundle of money and a fair command of the language (maybe a tad bit of culture) and you are in. It takes money to climb here, mostly money. I don’t think it is the same with the crusty, rusty and moldy upper class (monarchy) in Europe and the folks vacationing in the Martha’s Vineyard of the US. YMMV.
BTW, the middle class is so weak in LA and the there are so many people living in misery that the middle class is seen as rich by the last, even though the middle class in LA is NOTHING like the American middle class (money wise).
Yes, it’s a large continent. I’ve heard the “coyote” remark from rich Venezuelans, for your info, among others. My wife grew up in Mexico, where they have “Las Buenas Familias”, and where Indians are despised no end. It sounds like it’s the same in Venezuela re the attitude to Indians, but I could be wrong.
Venezuela is a supply region. What does that mean? It means it has one main export: oil. To quote from the site linked to at the bottom of this post: “In 2000, this sector [oil] accounted for roughly a third of GDP, 80% of export earnings, and more than half of central government’s operating revenues.” Like any supply region you can think of, it has a narrow middle class and a large number of poor people. This is natural: if the economy is dependent on a single commodity, obviously only a small number of people can live off of the wealth generated from selling that commodity.
So inequality is very high: “By Venezuelan standards ($700/month for a family of five), almost 80% of the population lives below the poverty line.” It’s hardly surprising that only 20% of the population can lift themselves out of poverty off of such a narrow economy.
That’s the class system of which I speak. I don’t find it at all out of the ordinary that the rich would immediately feel threatened by the ascension of an elected left wing President, given that there isn’t that much wealth to be spread around, and that the rich folks down there are precariously perched atop a large pyramid of poor people.
Like I said, it’s the nature of the economy in supply regions.
http://www.geographyiq.com/countries/ve/Venezuela_economy_summary.htm
Now i see your point pantom and yes, it is very possible that the rich might feel threatened by a left wing president; but here the president cultivates hatred in the lower classes and projects it to the upper classes and the very president has custom made suits in Italy and buyes 1000$ Mont
Blanc pens and golden Rolex’s; and not only this, he promises beneffits for the poor and instead of using the nation’s money to fulfill his promises he goes and buyes a new airplane that costs around 70.000.000$ dollars ti ceases to be a matter of classes and social extraction. Not long ago I also heard that a newpaper in France published that the opposition did not like Chavez because of his race and social extraction; this would be completely false because is quite absurd to presume that in a country where 95% of the population are a mixture of races there is going to be any real racial discrimination; to think that we do not like Chavez beacuse of his social extraction is also untrue, because of all of the former presidents that this country has had, only one came from a wealthy family (Rafael Caldera). On the other hand, the value of the dollar per bolivar has duplicated since the last year causing the country’s economy to sink even lower than it was (by 2001 the value of a dollar was of Bs. 700 per dollar; today it is about Bs. 1500 per dollar). This are only examples of what has happened in our country while this man has been in the presidence.
As you can see, it is not a class or a social issue…
Guishe,
Can you speak to or comment on the link to news story that I posted?
EasyPhil
About your link, I was quite impressed while I read it as I realized that it must be a few months old, although what it says might not be too far from the truth. Here I post the link once again in case someone has not read it
It is not untrue that the media tends to use different angles and takes in order to make a larger impression; this i have seen with my own eyes, but many things have changed since July 11th (the date mentioned in the article). I don’t recall that particular march because, as it says in the article, marches have become a monthly event and during this last month a daily event almost. The truth is that i do not doubt that President Chavez do has an inmense amount of followers that are trully loyal and believe in him, and it is also truth that the lower classes are the ones that support him, this lower classes are mostly of darker skin (mestizos of all kinds, black people, some indians, etc.); but the truth is that despite the media’s tricks (on both sides) used to make either concentration look larger than the other, they cannot defy what I have seen with my own eyes; an entire highway completely filled with people as far as the eye can see and the geografical situation allows, opposite of what happens on the regime friendly gatherings (transmited on tv by the state channel 8, Venezolana de Televisón) which do not reach half of the people on the opposition marchs. A friend of mine lives on a building in front of PDVSA La Campiña (actual gathering site of the Chavez followers) and the amount of people was not enough to fill two blocks, including incredible lines of buses on either side of the street that where used to take the people there. I would like to add that this gatherings ( the ones of the Chavez followers), are paid for with the state’s money (money that should be spent to pay doctors in public hospitals, or teachers at public schools and universities).
One thing that I would like to set straight is that the opposition has not made any marchs to the Miraflores Palace since April 11th. I re assure this because, in the article, the author speaks of opposition’s marches intended to go to Miraflores.
I think that it is also important to say that the problem is not only Chavez, the problem expands to the people that he has fingerpicked to run the country in different charges. A good example would be the Vice President José Vicente Rangel; I find it incredible how he manages to keep a straight face when talking to the press, when at the negotiation tables held with the opposition he is one of the government representatives and at the rallys and gatherings where he publicly speaks he says (on national TV, I might add) the he wants nothing to do with that sector, the opposition sector of course. I also admire the cynicism from the representatives of the government, Rangel particularly, when they say proudly that they are importing from Colombia 24.000 Lts of milk, thats, lets see… 24.000 cartons of milk for 24.000.000 people… now that is an accomplishment :rolleyes:
I got a little off subject there but, as you can see, it is not what Chavez represents only (as it says in the article), is that he and his pals are driving this country to complete misery; and it did not helped either that the people before him in the government where also useless; otherwise how can anyone explain that the fifth oil power in the world is a third world country…?
Guishe: thanks for responding. From what you’re saying, it appears that the case you’re making is that while Chavez came in with an overwhelming amount of support, that support has declined in response to his corruption. Am I getting that right?
Meantime, there’s an article in today’s New York Times which confirms my intuition that Indians are at the bottom in Venezuela, and makes a few assertions that you I’m sure will wish to dispute. Please read within the next few days, as the Times has a policy of making these links payable within a few days of publication:
To quote some salient items:
**pantom, **
Yes, that’s right.
About the New York Time’s article; I will not dispute that there are great class struggles here, as in every country in the world; and yes, unfortunedly indians are at the bottom of the economy; it is also truth that the “elite” class mostly has european features. This “elite” class are mostly descendants from european immigrants that came in the 1940’s; this european familys had a willingness to work far greater than any of the actual venezuelan’s at the time, this is why their children now have inherited such wealth. The other “elite families” are mostly three: the Mendoza family, owners of Empresas Polar, the Cisneros family, owners TV stations and half of Caracas; and finally the Cohen family, inheriters of Salomon Cohen who owns the other half of Caracas in real estates… Then we have the middle class, far more numerous than the upper class and no longer “mantuanos” (expression used in the colonial times but refered to in the article), but instead of pardos (I for one, am an example), brown skinned, dark haired, etc, not leaving out the many white people in it… this class also has different sources of income, they come from workers in the oil company (office work, that is) to merchants of any kind. This leaves the lower class, which has in majority this “pardos”.
It is true that the opposition, at first, was lead by the middle an upper class and middle class, but Chavez´s support has declined greatly since the past year, specially in the past year. Now, the opposition is no longer made of the elite classes, as it once was, but it is made by the majority of he people in this country. I have no doubt of this last affirmation, although I know that Chavez has many loyal followers, loyalty that I do not understand and I believe that it is made of ignorancy and false hope…
One last thing that I will like to add is that, here in Venezuela, I trully believe that any kind of racism is pretty much unexistent (with this I intend to discredit any argument based on the opposition not liking Chavez for his color…), but what I will not deny the very strong presence of classism; but even so, I repeat what I have been saying all along, the Chavez problem is not a matter of class, once one has looked over the facts one can see how this man is taking this country even lower than it has ever been, this man who admires the actual cuban situation and way of life and embracess Fidel Castro like a father and a mentor… this man must leave.
Pantom, you owe me an apology, your ignorance is such that… (no if I say something else it will be in the pit). Had you spoken in such terms of jews or blacks you would have been banned.
Here is some information for you. Latin America is huge and not everyone in here uses a mexican hat carries a rifle and terrorizes peasants. Stop watching movies and read a book or two.
And finally I have never heard the word coyote in Argentina… No, sorry I had… In the Road Runner.
Comparing race relationship in the US to that of Latin America is a sign of ignorance (not necessarily in general but in particular to this subject). There’s no denying that there is indeed racism in LA, heck there is racism in every corner of the planet where there’s at least two humans, but every country/region has its own racial dinamic.
In general (and I am about to commit the sin of generalization) in Latin America the “one drop” rule doesn’t apply. We tend to recognize, name and categorize every shade of color from beige to pitch black. I our own brand of racism has more to do with money and education than with color, it is less violent, less ingrained, but sadly, equally pervasive. IMHO that is.
I am not a Venezuelan, but I think it is safe to say that had Chavez being a moderate, articulate and apt stateman he would be in the enviable position of appealing to a wider range of Venezuelans, being that he is not white nor black or indian but looks like a mix of all. Chavez’ stupidity has nothing to do with the color of his skin.