Vengeance thy name is...Buffy 10/22 (SPOILERS)

When Buffy is on her way to kill Angel before he can awaken Acothla (sp), Zander pops out of the bushes with a message from Willow. Instead of the message (which I can’t recall anyway) he tell Buff Willow says to “kick his butt.”

I don’t recall if the message was important or not, so I’ll have to abdicate to someone else …

The message was that Willow was trying the spell again… Buffy was to keep Angelus busy until Willow could give him the soul back. Without this information, Buffy wound up having to “kill” Angel (great line, BTW: “And all that worked out okay…”)

Drusilla (& cohorts) had just killed Kendra, broken Xander’s arm, put Willow in the hospital, and kidnapped Giles. After Willow woke up, she decided she wanted to try once more at restoring Angel’s soul - she sent Oz & Cordelia off to get her things, and Xander off to help Buffy, with the message that she was going to try again - and to try and wait for it to work.

Xander, who wanted Angel dead & really didn’t care if his soul was restored or not, didn’t give that message to Buffy. Instead he changed the message to “Kick his ass.” So, when Angel’s soul was restored, Buffy certainly wasn’t expecting it. It might not have changed anything (the portal still needed to be closed, Angel’s blood was still the thing that could have done it) but, still, very much a material lie.

My reaction to the show was — wow. A nine in my book. The Spike scenes were forced into the show, as they only added to the long term plot development, they were a bit jarring. The scenes were ok, but just did not fit in well. Still a minor quibble at best.

The song number, lots of Anya, lots of Xander, lots of continuity for the fans of that. Wow.

2 reactions to the above posts. I liked Buffy’s speech. And Willow is not a vengence demon. I think there is probably a standing offer though. :wink:

Probably the strongest episode this year and one of the strongest since “once more with feeling”.

Oh, and I like the part with D’Hoffryn in the end, the punishment selected, and his use of “from beneath you it devours” was a nice unexpected touch.

I am worried a bit about the Big Bad, at this point I wonder if they can actually come up with something cool enough to match the build up.

Repeat already? Dang it.


This is a point which many who condemn Xander for this lie miss. The way the fight played out, there was almost nothing that Buffy could realistically have done to stop Angelus from opening the portal. Once that was done, Buffy had to kill Angel to close the portal, soul or no.

Now, would the fight have played out differently had Buffy known about the attempt to restore Angel’s soul? Maybe, though the geography of Angelus’ mansion and the relative location of Acathla to the door would probably have made that difficult. And Buffy certainly would have tried to prevent Angel from opening the portal in the first place (whether or not she knew about Willow’s spell) because there was no way to ensure that he wouldn’t just open the portal and skeedaddle, leaving the world to be sucked into Hell.

Granted, Xander’s lie came from a not exactly pure place, but I don’t think that it would ultimately have made a difference in how that scenario played out. (Now, how the fact of his lie affects his relationship with Willow and Buffy is a different question).

Don’t have much to say about the ep. Still reeling from the Victoria’s Secret ad near the beginning. Yowza!

D’Hof is great!. My fave line was in response to Aud, “They all deserve it” – “Well, yes, that’s where I was going with that.” Bwahaha.

Or when they subtitled “ha ha ha!”

Whole family jumped when the spider legs first appeared.

I’m a little surprised VDs are such good fighters. Anya’s done better against Buff than just about anyone else I can recall.

And - you knew to expect it from me - the only real weak part was the song - tho I tolerated it for continuity’s sake (and because Anya looked so damn hot!) Not sure where they’re gonna go with her character now. Human Anya, not too thrilling.

Excellent character development by Dawn - she curled her hair!

Overall, the second excellent ep this season (in the style of seasons 1-5) - more than all of last season. Way to go!

“Hide your babies and your beadwork!”

Most enjoyable episode this season; good balance of drama, gore, humor, and angst. Great fight scene with Buffy and Anya; you could really feel it when Buffy slammed into the frat house bar. Wonderful details in the troll-menacing-village scene, particularly with the tree falling onto the cottage in the background.

Enough cannot be said about Abraham Benrubi’s performance.

D’Hoffryn was fantastic. I like my demons campy and versed in the witty reparte.

Hmmmm. Maybe Buffy’s heart wasn’t completely in it, what with having to kill a friend and pseudo-ally, and that could explain the “I’m the law” speech as convincing herself to do it. She has the ultimate trump card with “I killed Angel.” No one can ever argue with that one.

Dear ME: Can we please resolve this Spike thing soon? Crazy’s becoming a little tiresome.

It was a great episode! I loved the whole thing, except the song. It seemed clunky and forced, but the mustard in the background was great.

I missed most of the Aud scene, and the Spike scene, so I’ll have to watch the tape later.

I wanted to smack Xander upside the head at the end. Tell her you love her, idiot!!

Thanks for helping me put 2 + 2 together, everyone! Much appreciated. Since I’ve seen the series as Seasons 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, end of 6, 7, I’m continuity-impaired.

Now, if someone can point me someplace to keep me up to speed with Seasons 1-3 of Angel, I’d greatly appreciate it! (Note: I’m so glad to have good cable in my life again!)

Remember last week when I said “Best episode ever?” Probably not, as I said it on a different message board. But anyway, this may have been better. The emotional notes hit by all the actors were great, I loved the scenes in Iceland (or wherever), and I’m still singing that song. (Which is a problem given that I’m both married and a straight male.) This really is the best show on television.


Sing away! I have a couple of questions.

  1. We didn’t find out about the origins of the bunny phobia, did we?

  2. So vengeance demons have souls, do they? Then why was Anya so fascinated by the souled Spike at the Bronze, asking him how he did it? I had assumed it was because she had no soul as a demon. What’s the official line on souls in the Buffyverse (or is that too much to get into here)?

  3. Would shattering Anya’s amulet a la “Dopplegandland” have had the same mystical death reversal effect, without the flaming of Halfrek?

Oh, and looking at my first post (I’m not doing so well today), that should read “pseudo-friend and ally.” Anya and Buffy were never that tight.

Yeah, what’s the deal with that? This is something I’m very curious about. They keep dropping hints, the hilarious bit in OMWF, and now the rabbit flashback scene. But have they ever explained why she’s so freaked out by bunnies? Also, there’s the clip in the title sequence where she’s wearing a bunny suit. Has this happened yet?

I haven’t yet seen some chunks of seasons 3-5, so I don’t know if this has ever been covered. Inquiring minds want to know.

And as for last nights ep, I agree it was one of the best I’ve seen. The first half with Anya’s flashbacks and the song was simply hilarious, and the latter portion was very intense, particularly Buffy and Xander’s confrontation.

I was deeply moved… I very much like Anya. Xander was pissing me off in a way he hadn’t since the Angel days last night, both with his mewling about not killing Anya and his idiocy about not telling her he loved her. Well, he did say that he never minded being someone Anya was using to be a part of the world (or however it was phrased, which was rather sweet), but still… I just love Anya a lot and I don’t want to see her go.

I truly enjoyed the Spike scene with imaginary Buffy and then the real one… and how the imaginary Buffster was in white and was sweet and the real was in black and sort of harsh.

Is Buffy going to be the big bad?

I wanted more Dawn, but she wouldn’t have fit anywhere, really. Willow still rules. And her look of anger at Xander when B spilled the beans about his lie was priceless.

amarinth and jeevmon, I never (personally) missed that whether Buffy knew of the plan or not what had to happen did happen. That doesn’t change the lie that Xander told. He resented Angel since day one out of pure jealousy, and only after Angel went bad did he have some sort of material justification for it, which he then proceeded to cling to long after the rest (even Giles!) had done what they could to move on with it.

He deserved to hear what Buffy said to him, IMO, though it was about four seasons too late.

Best moment: the abrupt change from song to Anya-kabob. :shudder: I couldn’t hold back my tears there.

I seem to remember her in the bunny suit for Halloween during Season 4. I think this might actually have been the first time we learned that they creep her out.


She wore a bunny suit as a halloween costume in the episode where the haunted house is actually haunted by a fear demon.

“Don’t mock the fear demon.”

“Why is it dangerous?”

“No, just tacky.”

On past eps: In Becoming (or maybe after, like “Dead Man’s Party” perhaps?) Buffy says that she could tell that Angel’s soul had returned, but she ran him through anyway. To save the world and all that. Doesn’t change that Xander told a big lie because he never liked Angel, but it does show that the lie didn’t end up changing the outcome.

I think the biggest continuity error in this ep was the amulet thing. D’Hoffryn says that reversing a dozen frat boys with their hearts ripped out is a big deal, requiring a big sacrifice to reverse it. But to reverse the complete re-write of the previous 2-1/2 years was relatively easy, by smashing her amulet.

In fact, that’s always been a continuity problem. Smashing the amulet was supposed to reverse all her past wishes, according to Giles. There should have been major changes to the world, due to reversed wishes from the 11 centuries of her career. And we wouldn’t have had the pissed-off wish-victim that gave Xander the bad visions in the wedding episode. At least the Troll King didn’t enter into that, since she did that before becoming a vengeance demon.

Otherwise, the episode was indeed good. Though I could do with an unadulterated happy ending soon. I know that the fact that victories have consequences (just not as bad as failures would) is an important part of Buffy’s life, and that most episodes of the entire run end this way, but I’d still like an unasterisked checkmark in the win column once in a while.

Anya wore the bunny suit to a Halloween party in Season 4. Xander told her to wear something scary for Halloween and she said bunnies were the scariest thing she knew. That was the origin of the bunny phobia running gag.

I don’t think Willow is a VD at this point although I’m sure D’Hoffren renewed his offer. Willow’s terrified of her power and disgusted by what Anya did, so I don’t think she’ll be signing up any time soon.

I would imagine that smashing Anya’s power center here would have the same effect as it did in the alt-Buffyverse. Recall that Halfric was very protective of her jewelry in the House Party episode. Hallie also said that it would take more than a sword to take her out so Buffy should’ve known to come more heavily armed.

I don’t think next week is a repeat, I think they were just using old scenes for the promo for whatever reason. I think that the new scene from the intro with a door opening and everyone screaming is going to be from the Halloween episode.

I want to know when we’re going to get back to the “girl-a-week-killed-by-monks-or-whoever” thing. Which leads me to my wildest of WAGs for the season: The Principal is indeed going to be revealed as a Watcher. Faith is going to be killed and Dawn is going to be called as the new Slayer. This will allow Buffy to leave Sunnydale (and SMG to leave the show) secure in the knowledge that there’s a Slayer remaining to thwart the Hellmouth.

I’m guessing it has something to do with the load-bearing bar matron.

Next week is definitely a repeat.

They will be showing ep 6, Him, on Nov 5th.

Hmmm, has anybody noticed that Buffy hasn’t been winning her battles for a long time? “The battle’s done and we kinda won…” She failed to stop Warren, she couldn’t stop Willow, Xander saved the day in Lessons, she didn’t even fight the demon in Beneath You, she wouldn’t have found Willow w/o Spike and Anya, she couldn’t save Cassie’s life, and last night fighting Anya was very, very ineffective and didn’t have anything to do with the outcome.
Maybe Buffy’s whole “I am the law” rough and ready, harsh, way of looking at the world isn’t working.