Veteran's, Benfits and the budget

Great Debates
1

As the adult child of a POW, I have some very strong feelings about what we owe those who have served on behalf of our country.

I am, however, a realist and there are more living veterans now than at any time in our nation’s history. We make many programs available - home loans, education, health care just to name a few. And the price for these programs continue to rise.

The secretary of veteran’s affairs believes that he can make the proposed 2005 budget work. At least that is what he is quoted as saying.

I think these numbers are crap and they will not cover the increasing demands on a system worn thin from over use and under funding. A system that barely meets the needs now of the eligible vets. How will it meet the needs as more vets return home from the war being waged in the middle east?

Are we being realistic in providing these benefits to our armed forces? Are we providing too many benefits to those who have served?

2

Well that depends on how you want to treat those on the front lines of defense. But first lets’s look at the benefits. The VA does provide home loan assistance for qualified veterans (I think it’s 180 days continuous active duty, I forget from my orientation) it’s not that great of a program. (I’ll provide cites itf anyone is interested but I’ve explored this personally). The amount of funding they provide is not consistant with living near most military bases. That is those near heavy urban centers. I addition to myself I know several veterans who haven’t used this particular benefit. I may use it if I ever want to live somewhere rural, but that’s not in the cards presently. Of course I ilve in California, and my experiences may be skewed by the price of realestate here.

As for education benefits, well the soldiers themselves are contributing funds for this program. Soldiers agree to forgo a certain amount of thier pay for mathching funds from the government. I suspect that if this type of program was handled along the lines of a 401k, where the funds were invested/managed the program wouldn’t be very expensive. But that’s just speculation on my part, not having looked into it more than superficially.

Healthcare is different, only applying to retirees and injuries sustained during service, are these benefits you’d really want to cut? As far as active duty recipients of healthcare, this is actually a win/win for the service. The service has a ready skilled medical establishment that is capable of also being used in field hospitals such as MASH and MUST units. That doesn’t even take in to account medics, who essentially act as paramedics. Another added benefit is skills that these people will bring back to the civilian sector in the form of emergency room personell, plastic surjury, oncology, etc.

Lastly our fight forces aren’t the most well paid folks in the country. I’ve seen estimates as high as 40% for service men and women with families on active duty who qualify for foodstamps. Food Stamps!!! I’d always considered the extra benefits as the way they addressed the pay.

3

First, I will say that I fall under the anti-war side of the political spectrum. That said, I would say that we absolutely need to provide these benefits. Agree or disagree with the reasons for war, the bottom line is that these folks answered their countries call and deserve to be fairly compensated for doing so. I will say that I think that the sunding should come out of and be counted as part of the defense budget (rather than the social services budget).

4

Stuffy, I’m not proposing we cut any benefits. I think a time may come when we have to make some tough choices about which benefits we keep and how we handle the number of people eligible for health care through the VA.

I am saying that we could make better decisions about what is a reasonable level of care and benefits if we had good solid number for what it is costing us.

One article, I don’t know if I linked to it, I’ll check and re-link, says that the increase in the budget amount doesn’t even cover manditory increases for VA staff. So, we have a budget that people are saying is going to work, but in fact, may be the best piece of fiction put before the American people in a while.

And, Binarydrone, all these benefits? Did you check out the VA web site? Aside from the medical benefits, there are other things including drug rehab and homeless intervention programs. And lifetime medical insurance? Two or three years of military service entitles one to a lifetime of medical care (substandard as it is.)?

And I believe that they deserve everything and then some, but let’s be fiscally responsible about this, shall we?

5

I did check the links.

I guess a couple of points are worth making here: I do not believe that war itself is fiscally responsible. That said, I fully believe that if we are going to do it then we (as a society) should be honest about the true cost of war and pay the bill (and again, I think that this needs to be a part of the defense budget, not social services).

A lot of these so-called benefits are needed because of what war does to people (Vocational rehab, Homeless intervention, drug rehab and the like) and I have no problem with, of all people, veterans receiving these benefits.

If we want to be fiscally responsible I just don’t think that this is the first place to look. There is plenty of pork to be trimmed before we go after the folks that put their lives on the line because some lunatic told them that they were defending democracy.

6

I always get angry thinking about the “secondary benefits” of military service being removed. My pet peeve? The PX and commissary.

One real cost-saving benefit for vets has been their continued shopping priviledges at the post exchange and the commissary. Believe me, you can save an absolute fortune on groceries, home furnishings, clothing and other items by shopping on base. Many vets settled down and bought homes near established bases just for this reason.

But now, we have closed so many bases (at least here in CA) that lots of vets can no longer shop at a commissary or PX. I am in SoCal, and the nearest commissary is about an hour’s drive from me. The savings from food stamps will never measure up to the savings shopping on base.

I think it is yet another broken promise to our men and women who served proudly.

7

You’re right. The Department of Veteran’s Affairs is the second largest of the 15 Cabinet departments. So it sould be the second place we look if we wanna chop budgets.

Which lunatic would that be? Franklin Roosevelt? Don’t bother answering. Rather, leave your stupid bias against whoever it is (and I think I know) out of this discussion. It’s not pertinent in the least.

In any case, I’d agree with your above statement - if our military was comprised of conscripts. Since it ain’t, the benefits the volunteers receive seem to be more than a bit outta line with what should be realisitically expected. Most people do not continue to receive any significant benefits from an organization after they’ve left it. And none of ‘em got a whole damn Cabinet department lookin’ after 'em.

Even tho’ I’ve worked at my present job since before we had office furniture, or even an office, and I’m the only person remaining here who can say that, one year after my departure, I will no longer be eligible for the profit sharing plan. (In the interests of full disclosure, I was on the committee that wrote the profit sharing plan, for whatever that’s worth to ya.)

Since there’s a single Cabinet deprtment which handles nothing but veteran’s benefits, it should be easy enough to find out how much it’s costing us. Looks like Bush thinks it should be costing us $67+ billion.

That’s from this page at the VA site. $2576 per veteran family per year, or $957 per person served per year. Pretty big chunks of change as far as direct federal benefits to individuals go.

8

People perceive that veterans get more than we actually do. It’s a well-sold bill of goods. GI Bill home loans, for example. Probably was a good thing back in 1945-1950, but not now, for reasons stated above.
Scrap the GI Home Loan and replace it with something meaningful.

PX and commisary priviledges? Only if you are retired after 20+ years of service or 100% disabled. Either way, they earned it.

Medical care/insurance, it keeps changing. I got a monthly stipend on the GI bill when I was in college, and during that time I got free medical and dental (1970’s) cause it was popular to take care of our poor VietNam Victims… uh, Vets. Now don’t get your hackles up VN Vets, I’m a nam Vet, too, and I’m just saying that is how our government saw us for a little while. As soon as the dust settled, that free medical was whisked away.

As a Veteran, I believe we should receive lifetime care and compensation (if appropriate) for service-connected illnesses. We get that. I think it was good to have that free medical while I was readjusting to “life after the war,” and I think combat veterans should have that as some kind of readjustment benefit.

Quality of care for medical is an issue. The system is run very sloppy and loose, top-heavy and expensive. I have seen such incompetence in the VA managed system that I’m appalled. If it were a public facility they would go out of business. We deserve better. I get most of my medical care from medical insurance that I buy and pay for! I use a minimum of my entitlement because they scare me. I say we should scrap the system and buy veteran’s health insurance from the private sector. In the long run it would be cheaper, too! We call our VA docs participants in “White-collar Welfare.” (Cause they can’t keep a job elsewhere?)

Veterans who put their lives on the line for their country should do so with the absolute knowledge that they will not be forgotten by their country after the bombs stop falling. Depending on the political climate we are alternately coddled and abandoned. I know. It should be consistant, and not dependent on levels of funding (which only reflect political whims). And it should be fair. There is a class structure in the military, officers vs. enlisted, that should disappear in retirement or after-care. Lots of money could be saved there, too. Why should a healthy retired colonel get to park closer to the hospital than a disabled combat veteran?

Want to save money? Let’s look at eliminating elitist things like lifetime pensions for Senators and Congressmen… Don’t take money away from those who earned it and deserve it.

9

It can’t be handled along the lines of a 401(k). The federal government is prohibited by law from purchasing stock in public corporations (as they should be). When the federal government “invests” money that’s been contributed towards a future payout, it buys the only thing it can - federal government securities. In essence, the government takes the money contributed, buys federal bonds, and then spends the proceeds of the bonds (your contributions) as general operating funds. The bond that’s left is really an IOU from the federal government to the federal government. There isn’t even just a big old pile of cash stuffed in a duffel bag somewhere. (This is the same problem from which Social Security suffers. The “trust fund” is nothing but a file drawer of IOUs at the GAO.)

10

And appropriations accounting means that is what they will spend. I just don’t buy it. According to this the amount of medical benefits budgeted for 2005 increased 4.1% but the VA estimates that the number of people they are going to treat will increase 12 %. The math doesn’t work here.

11

You’re right; it doesn’t add up. Unless one supposes that Secretary Principi, is gonna make some cuts elsewhere. Or maybe he’s planning to increase dramatically the number of volunteered hours in the VA’s Voluntary Service. But I rather doubt it. I wonder if perhaps the DOD, or some other department, reallocates funds to the VA.

I guess it might not be as easy as I thought to figure out how much this is costing us. Naive of me to expect a straightforward answer to a question of the federal budget, eh?

12

The “All Volunteer Army” is a relatively recent development in the scheme of things. People were conscripted, i.e., ‘drafted’ as recently as the late 1970’s. So, we have veterans who were conscripted, often against their will, who are in their 50’s today.

Our current military comprises volunteers only (I’ll be polite, “comprised of” is improper usage), and the rules have changed somewhat to reflect this.

In part, I agree with you. The all-volunteer military should be treated like any other business, with all disclosures up front. Retirement benefits should be treated like retirement benefits, and should be kept seperate from Veterans’ benefits, which should be administered to Veterans only! Veteran means serving in a time of war, not just serving in the military. Combat Veterans not only served in a time of war, they served on the front lines. We should also have a category for wartime veterans who served in a place where they were in danger, but were in a support capacity, to distinguish them from Vets who only served in support activities far from the battlefield.

Not all former military members are veterans. It’s an important distinction.

S¬

13

While I understand why you would assume that I am talking exclusively about Bush, you are simply wrong. Nice to see a knee jerk in the other direction as well. As I stated in my earlier posts, I am anti-war, for the most part. I think that there are usually alternatives. That said, thanks for the venom.

Look, all that I am saying is that war is expensive and so is being ready for war all of the time. If we have decided that, as a society, we value this then we should be willing to pay the bill.

14

And the more I think about it, the angrier I get. Again from the cite above, 90% of the VA staff works in the benefits/health care area, if we assume a 3% COL increase for all staff, (which is low, it should be closer to 4%, I would guess) that effectively leaves less than 1.2 % to cover the increased patient flow as well as increases in costs associated with running programs - food, equipment, supplies, etc. Even if we include the 340 mil in savings for streamlining the procurement process, I just don’t see it working.

So, straighforward? Hardly.

15

As I said I only loked at it superficially, for precisely those reasons. Not mention I had a scholarship. :smiley:

16

The VA home loan program is not much value to veterans, nor much cost to taxpayers, due to the funding fee charged, which is similiar to FHA and private mortgage insurance charges to cover defaults.

The VA loan program has outlived its usefulness but after years of promoting this as a benefit of military service(which it hasn’t been for a long time), I doubt any politican will propose its elimination and risk the scorn of veteran groups.

17

The Bay Pines Veterans Hospital is located near our home. There has recently been a “scandal” at that facility involving veteran’s care. Someone of authority in the VA department authorized the installation of a computer system that cost in excess of $500 million, in spite of problems associated with that system. Bay Pines, one of the largest VA facilities in the country, was chosen as the first location for the system, with the Tampa VA facility scheduled as the second. Training for use of the system consisted of a couple of hours of video instruction and apparently even that wasn’t made available to many of the people who were forced to use the system—I use the word “forced” because the existing computer system was arbitrarily shut down very soon after the new system was installed. Effectively, a computer system was implemented in spite of issues with the system, and the back up system was then disconnected. The result was that needed supplies could not be ordered, suppliers weren’t being paid, records were jumbled, etc., etc. It all came to a head when it was announced that scheduled surgeries were being suspended due to a lack of surgical supplies. A furor ensued, with various elected officials becoming involved. There were allegations of retaliation against employees who complained about the system and there are currently several ongoing investigations into the management of the facility. Some of the top people at the faciltiy have been relieved, reassigned, or given jobs of lesser importance. I believe, but don’t know, that some early retirements also took place. By and large it was quite a debacle and, so far as I know, hasn’t been entirely resolved to date.

18

You’re right. I did react to something you did not write. Please accept my apologies.

And this probably way the heck off-topic, but in your second post here you said: “I do not believe that war itself is fiscally responsible.” Would you elaborate on that? I’m left with the impression, almost certainly mistaken given your subsequent remarks, that if a war can be “financially justified,” you might find it acceptable. How would one go about quantifying that? If you think it’s too much of a hi-jack to Jane’s topic and do not wish to respond, that’s fine. I’ll make no quibbles.

I’m having a little trouble reading your position here, Jane. Are yopu upset because the Bush’s proposed VA budget in all likelihood ain’t gonna be sufficient to cover the costs the VA seems to project? Or that Secretary Principi says he can make the amount work when you think he needs to ask for more? Or that because you think we’re spending too much for too little actual return to the Vets?

19

I agree it is a much needed benefit, but when I worked in military contracting, all these guys who were retired or separated from the military STILL have the benefit. That’s wrong. If they only allow it to those in active service, they’d save a ton of money. I might agree to add those who have separated and are living in poverty. The guys I’m talking about were making $75-$100K a year, and still shopping at the PX. Cheap muthafuckas that they were. I think it’s wrong.

20

I think I was vague on purpose. My upset begins with Principi saying he can make the amount work and I think its smoke and mirrors. It’s his job to tell the prez yes or no on numbers, he is the expert. I am not an expert, by a long shot. I don’t claim to be. But I don’t think I’m out of line in asking for numbers that make sense and that can be workable.

Appropriations budgeting is slippery and I don’t know if we’re spending too much and not getting enough because I just can not believe the numbers out there for this budget. And, I’ll go out on a limb and say that before fiscal 2005 is over, Principi will be back at the table asking for additional funding. It’ll be a page 20 article if it makes the news at all and no one will be any wiser about it.