Ikea.
Nope. They’re not. They may think they believe in Christ, but what they really believe in is a construct they’ve created that bears a superficial resemblance of Christ, while actually representing their own prejudices.
<sarcasm> I have no problems with individual blacks, many of whom are lovely people…</sarcasm> Do you see why people are accusing your of using the brush of hatred and bigotry? BTW: Which ‘Church’ are you refering to? There are thousands of organized denominations, loose associations, and independant congregations that fall under the label ‘Christian’. Are you sugesting that they’re all corrupt? A large percentage? A few? Have you basis for your belief, or just a few (admitedly nasty) anecdotes?
You’ve declared a belief system to a shelter for bigotry and hate: That’s a pretty broad brush. I think you’d be a damn-sight better off if you went and examined some of your own (apparent) prejudices. Afterwards, if you want to have a discussion on the morals and behaviors of indivdual bigots, or specific collections of bigots, we can talk.
- Tranq, whom is Born Again, and (like most Christians) doesn’t hate gays/lesbians.
Welcome back to Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom. Today, we’ll be exploring the natural habitat of Ursus Homosexualus crownus, or the Gay Bear Top.
Here’s my assistant Jim, and we’ll be following him into a bar called The Lure in just a few minutes. Well, somebody will be following him. I’ll be sitting safely in the truck like I always am, thank you very much.
But first, Just as Jim will be strutting his stuff for the Bears in a minute, you can strut your stuff by investing in Mutual of Omaha’s life insurance plan. For just a few dollars per month, you’ll be strutting your protection and watching your savings grow!
Now let’s go back to Jim. He has a hard job today, because the Bears have an innate sense of potential mates called Gaydar. If Jim doesn’t behave himself just right, those bears will peg him for a poseur in a second! Let’s watch.
As Jim approaches the first Bear, you’ll see that we have put a handkerchief in his pocket. This is to signal his interest. It’s in his right pocket to signify that he is submissive, and it is red because, uh. Wait. Red? Jim! Get out of there! Stop the cameras!
Uh, we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
>Cackle< Only you, Yosemite, only you… hell of a nice segue, though. 
Cartooniverse
[quote]
<sarcasm> I have no problems with individual blacks, many of whom are lovely people…</sarcasm> Do you see why people are accusing your of using the brush of hatred and bigotry? BTW: Which ‘Church’ are you refering to? There are thousands of organized denominations, loose associations, and independant congregations that fall under the label ‘Christian’. Are you sugesting that they’re all corrupt? A large percentage? A few? Have you basis for your belief, or just a few (admitedly nasty) anecdotes?
[/quote
First, that’s a sloppy analogy. Black folks are not an organized group lobbying to enforce second class citizens, and Christians are not an ethnic group. Try again.
Second, there are good, charitable folks in the Church (by which I mean Christian denominations), but they aren’t running the show.
Some examples:
The Southern Baptist convention has organized a boycott of
Disney for pro-gay policies.
Ex-gay groups founded by Evangelical Christians trying to get gay folks to “come out of homosexuality”
The thousands of sermons preached by ministers that AIDS was God’s revenge on homosexuals
The silence of churches on Matthew Shepard’s murder
The active support of Christian groups to pass legislation denying equal protection for gays in several states, like Oregon and Colorado.
Bigotry is unreasoning prejudice. I go by facts, and the facts are damning: while there are many Christians of good will who wish good things for gays, the leaders of the various denominations in the US overwhelmingly support anti-gay measures.
Not trying for an exact parallel, just trying to get the tone, which I think I hit pretty close.
Needless to say, I’ve no support whatsoever for generic hatred and prejudice. From any quarter. Rather than hijack this further, I’ll just ask you to agree to disagree.
Just to give you a real-world example of how well that “boycott” is working:
I am a Southern Baptist. I’ve been a member of three churches in the past five years (due to moving) that were part of the Southern Baptist Convention. I know of absolutely no one who has cancelled plans to go to DisneyWorld, or stopped purchasing Disney products, based on the SBC boycott. In fact, four of the nine couples in my Bible study class have been to DisneyWorld in the past year, and my wife and I are planning to go next year.
Don’t judge Christians (even Southern Baptists) by what a handful of leaders do. You wouldn’t automatically assume all Americans are like George W. Bush, would you?
Have you heard of the True Scotsman fallacy? They go to church, they believe in Jesus, they’re Christians. You don’t get to say, “Well, no true Christian acts like that.”
You’re changing the definition to bolster your argument.
Easier to walk away than admit you’re wrong.
I never said the boycott worked, or that ALL Baptists felt obliged to obey. heck, you guys are a bunch of independent congregations, after all. But the Southern Baptist leadership DID declare a boycott, did they not? Would a gay couple be welcome in your church, honestly?
So can I say that all gay men dress outrageously, work as hairdressers and lisp?
Then it would seem that you and I are the only two - it’s getting panned. But then, so did Epcot and Animal Kingdom when they opened, and they’re both great parks, too.
Esprix
Yup. They declared a boycott. And as far as I can tell, it accomplished squat. Didn’t affect anyone I know (admittedly a small subset of the overall population).
Honest answer to your other question: A gay couple would cause some consternation in my church, mainly among the older members (although I believe some would have no problem with it). I can tell you a gay couple would be welcome in my Bible study class.
[sarcasm]Heck, we’ve even let Mexicans come in! (Only if they had some white blood, of course.)
We’re quite the open-minded bigots.[/sarcasm]
But it is where the gay boys go. On usual nights it’s mixed, but the other bars are definitely for straight folks. Not to get too ghettoized (I don’t care for clubs much myself, unless I go with friends), but since it’s the most clubby, it’s where the gay boys go. Or maybe you just don’t notice these things like I do.
Surprisingly I did see a very few kiddies walking around PI with their parents, but only on the streets outside, not in the clubs themselves. I thought that rather odd, especially since they card everyone at the entrance to PI.
Exactly - PI is supposed to be for grown-ups, and partying grown-ups at that. As if this kind of stuff doesn’t happen at straight clubs? Please. The only people offended by it were the fundies videotaping it, who wouldn’t be there under normal circumstances anyway. Nobody who was there would give a flying frell.
Esprix
Make that three. I love it. (just took my roommate, who also enjoyed herself).
Did you guys watch the parade? (I have to ask, my sibling is in it.
Also, they’re bringing back the Electrical Parade at DCA this summer, too.
Nope, never heard of it, but I’ll look it up. I’ve been using my definition of ‘Christian’ for as long as I can remember: Saying I believe in something, say, Bhudda, but applying beliefs & prejudices counter to the teachings of Bhudda, doesn’t make me a Bhuddist, it makes me a hypocrite. I’ve found that most (but by no means all) fundies are either poorly informed, or outright hypocrites.
Nope: Smart enough to try and walk away, realizing we have fundamentally (No pun intended) different world-views. I guess the answer on civil disagreement is ‘No’.
Some do, some don’t. I know masculine guys (like myself) who you would never guess are gay, and some who make Tinkerbell look butch, and many in between the two extremes. But the stereotyping of gays is not analogous to my characterization of Christian groups. I have said repeatedly that I am NOT talking about each and every Christian. This board, by its very nature, attracts folks who skew to the more informed and liberal side of the bell curve, so the majority of Christians on this board are going to tend to be more open-minded. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the leadership of most (but not all) Christian denominations in the US are anti-gay.
Confirmed - it’s still at Disneyland (in Anaheim) but no longer at Disney World (in Orlando). However, park officials are talking about replacing Country Bear Playhouse in Critter Country with a Winnie-the-Pooh ride.
Esprix
Maybe I’m missing the point of what goboy was trying to say, but I think you guys are agreeing here. Or maybe it’s just me.
If I could be so bold as to interpret what I thought goboy was saying (which is also what I think) is that Christians are A-OK, but the Church, the leadership, is intolerant towards gays, for the most part. What goboy said was:
which I think supports my view. Both of you agree that the leadership of the churches is intolerant, but not necessarily the Christians in them. Right?
If I could be so bold as to interpret what I thought goboy was saying (which is also what I think) is that Christians are A-OK, but the Church, the leadership, is intolerant towards gays, for the most part.
[/quote]
Bingo! That’s exactly what I’ve been saying (although my posts have been crystal clear, the other posters have yet to grasp that point.)
Change: ‘…intolerant towards gays, for the most part…’ to: ‘…intolerant towards gays, all too often…’, and we’ve got some agreement.
NOW you’re clear. Thanks LaurAnge.