Perhaps because the thread was hijacked with an irrelevant aside that’s also completely wrong. There are no fixed rules of etiquette. A formal dinner at Buckingham Palace isn’t governed by the same rules of etiquette as you inviting your friends around to your house for sushi. If you accept that, why is it so hard to understand that etiquette changes depending on the demographics of those present, their relationship with each other, ages of those present, and a billion other things?
Notions of what’s proper have changed with the generations. It’s almost universally understood to anybody in their twenties, or early thirties, that birthday meal => everybody pays their own way, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Hijacking the thread with hopelessly out of date notions of what’s proper is just a distraction from the jackasses who turned up over an hour late for an event, without properly excusing themselves.
Yep, some people only take a set amount of money with them, and expect someone else to cover for them. And it’s always the same people. If they order the $12.99 dinner, and three drinks, they throw down a twenty and expect it to cover their meal, their drinks, the tax, and the tip. Or they’ll want to split the bill evenly, when they’ve had the most expensive dinner and again, several drinks. Since I often go out to be with people and not necessarily to actually eat, I might have had a nice salad (I can play with a salad for quite a while without actually overeating) and tea or water, while Percy PennyPincher over there had the 20 ounce steak and again, several drinks. I don’t mind paying for his steak too much, but I do mind subsidizing someone else’s boozing.
I wish that it was more acceptable to insist that everyone pay for his/her own meal…and drinks. Especially drinks. In most groups, there always seems to be one or two moochers, who won’t mind underpaying every time, and who won’t mind stiffing the server on the tip.
I’ll ask you what I asked the Captain, why all the hostility? No one’s going to take your birthday away if you don’t know/follow/agree with the rules of etiquette. What are you so afraid of?
But guess what? Those rules do still apply and your derision of those of us who do know/follow/agree with the rules is a bit over the top. People who care find out this stuff.
But I would find it difficult to believe you don’t know/follow at least some of the rules of etiquette. Surely you don’t spit on the floor or eat off strangers’ plates, do you? You shake hands (or do the germophobe bump) when you are introduced to someone, don’t you? Maybe you even thank people for gifts they give to you and open doors for the elderly? R.S.V.P. to an invitation? If you’re over three years old, of course you do. Same thing.
I think it’s really telling that the very people complaining the most about this “party” (either in the first person or vicariously) are the very same ones scoffing at the rules of etiqutte - which, if had been followed, would have allowed all the very things being complained about to be avoided.
Well…I might not have put it like that, but yes. It’s clear that they are neither used to eating in a high-end restaurant nor know what one is.
It’s a cultural thing. In NYC where restaurants of all kinds are plentiful and people generally live in small appartments not condusive to hosting a party, getting together in a restaurant is a pretty regular occurance. Frankly it sounds bizzare to call someone who would invite you to a birthday dinner as “assholish”.
And as anyone who has any sense knows, there are a few simple rules of etiquate:
-Pick a restaurant in everyone’s price range
-Show up on time (or at least not too late)
-Don’t dress like a slob
-Don’t get drunk and act like a jackass
-Unless you are an extreme outlier (ie ordered just water and a salad or you ordered 3 steak & lobster dinners), the bill is more or less split evenly
-And DO NOT just toss down a couple of 20s, leave early and think that covered your share of a meal that should cost you $100.
If you went to any upscale steakhouse, even chains, it’d likely cost you the following:
2 pieces of meat: $80
3 side orders: $20
1 bottle of wine: $50
2 desserts: $20
Tip: $30
That’s $200 for any meal for two at any Morton’s or Ruth’s Criss.
Some places, like Smith and Wollensky or Donovans are even more expensive that this.
And these are just the chains!
Also, depending on wine you buy, the bill can EASILY run over $300… and that’s not because it’s really expensive wine. It can be Ravenswood that the restaurant gets for $10 a bottle. They’re still going to sell it to you for $40-$50.
There are no “rules of etiquette”, there are suggestions by self-appointed experts, but there are no rules. The sooner the etiquette police realize this, the better off the world will be. Thankfully, they’re mostly all 98 years old so they’ll be dead soon. And the younger ones will give themselves heart attacks as the wring their hands over a myriad of social gaffes.
And put me down for a second of “How much should ‘fine dining’ cost if $155 for two people doesn’t qualify?”
This I agree with. I don’t the expectation that she should have paid, but I do think it’s really putting people out. $155 is really a good chunk of money for a lot of people and it’s pretty self-centered on BG’s part.
IME, these dinners are paid for by the Groom’s family. It’s just tradition.
$176+
$80 bottle of wine (they have an unreal selection of French wines, so $80 is minimum really).
$256, before the tip.
Keep in mind that this place is in the middle of absolutely nowhere – farm country Virginia. So I think it’s actually cheaper because of that. If it were in Manhattan, this is a $500 meal.
I’ve never really patronized a “fine dining” restaurant, but that seems crazy for the low end. Are side dishes really priced out separately from the dinner like that? And why is a bottle of wine assumed?
Finally, mock my tipping skills if you must, but 25% is not a tip I normally leave.
It’s not hopelessly out of date. I’m 28 and hardly a prim and proper lady. But I try to be classy and I appreciate it when other people do it. I think etiquette is great because at it’s core it’s not actually about how to be nice to people. It’s about how to deal with people you don’t like without giving them any place to blame you. It also helps avoid meltdowns like this situation. Remember- you have nothing to lose by being classy.
What brought this on? One thing. She selfishly chose a venue that she wanted to try instead of a place where she thought her guests would be comfortable.
Parties are not about you. If you want something about you, go out with your boyfriend or something. Parties are about the guests.
A very classy person would have hosted the best party they felt comfortable with- be that a simple and elegant (or wild and crazy) house party or dinner at a restaurant they could afford- even if it’s just sandwiches at a deli or late night at a greasy spoon.
If you don’t want to host, don’t call it a party. It’s always okay to tell your friends that you are planning to go a nice restaurant and they are free to join you if they like. But that’s not a party. That’s dinner with your friends.
A somewhat less classy but not clueless person would have at least invited people to a pay-your-way “party” at a restaurant at a place that you know your friends are comfortable with and will enjoy. Why would you EVER invite people to a place that you have any reason to believe they wouldn’t like? It is glaring obvious that this restaurant was out of her “guest”'s price range. No wonder the “party” failed so badly.
I also agree birthday parties are pretty lame. There are holidays every month and a million excuses to get together. You ought to be able to come up with a better premise for a party than “me me me!” And I’m sure if your party is within a couple weeks of your birthday, your guests won’t forget and you’ll still get your moment in the sun, without having to beg your friends for attention.
I’d agree (and set the bar a little higher - can’t remember when I last saw a $50 bottle of wine on the menu of a restaurant selling you a $40 steak), but its a relative thing. When I was twenty years old, spending $80 on a meal for two was a “fancy special” dinner. Seems to me that the OP (and the host’s friends) are at the point in life where Nobu is outside the realm of their reality - but she was going for something “fancier” and “more special” for her birthday than their usual hangouts. That doesn’t mean that the place wasn’t fancy - it was fancy to them.
My friends have done this too - a fancier than usual pay your own way dinner, and it always SOUNDS like a better idea than it is - in part because suddenly in order to enjoy the company of the host, you need to put out more money than you normally would to eat. There is always someone who, by the end of the night, ends up feeling put out. I don’t know if its age, or kids, but this sort of thing happens much less now than it used to. Now, if we want to try a place where we will drop at least $100 a person, we go alone, we go with friends who we have invited and intend to pay for (which means one other couple at a time) or we go with friends who are paying for themselves because they’ve invited themselves along…(This usually goes something like “we really want to try the Heartland sometime.” Friend replies with “yeah, we’d like to try that place too, we should pick a night and go together.” That’s a separate check occasion.
I am really getting tired of reverse snobbery when it comes to manners. Hostess gifts are elitist trash these days? You just go to parties and don’t bring a bottle of wine or flowers or something because that’s what the moneyed upper crust worry about?
Honestly, do you think people on the prairie in 1840 brought hostess gifts? I’m not going for the reverse elistist snobbery thing, but the mainstreaming of “Emily Post” manners is something that occurred in the 1900s. And manners are one of those things where cultural relativism exists - even within the U.S. I’m in Minnesota - plenty of well mannered people would argue that you don’t take anything offered here the first time its offered - but that’s a regional thing. Same with shoes off in the house - I was raised that its rude to expect your guests to remove articles of clothing…in Asia it would be rude to keep your shoes on. In the U.S. it seems to be almost household to household…
Your post supports the finding out and using of the etiquette rules of an area, so you don’t go around offending people everywhere you go. Polite people will not think ill of you if you do not bring a hostess gift, but they will think better of you if you do. What is wrong with being considerate of other people? Why is having manners suddenly a problem?
The point is that if everyone referred to in the OP knew and practiced actual etiquette, everyone would have had a good time. If the BG had invited guests to a restaurant she could afford, and paid for them; if the guests had promptly rsvp’d, arrived on time, considerately ordered something mid-range on the menu, and thanked the hostess for her generosity, what would the OP have to complain about? She’d have been a good host; they’d have been good guests. The problems arose because neither she nor the guests (not the OP) paid any attention at all to the rules of etiquette.
Oh, I completely agree. I’m one of those on the “don’t want to pay, can’t afford to treat ten of your friends to this restaurant, choose another venue for your party” side. And because these “rules” keep this sort of thing from happening - or at least make them less likely to occur.
But I’m also willing to grant that there is cultural relativism at work - and just because someone and their group of friends always do this as separate checks or we split the bill, does not mean that they are complete and total bores or WRONG. Once a group of people establish that as their custom, then its OK…not technically right to those that care about what Emily Post wrote…but still OK. And fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately), there is no etiquette prison.