Incidentally, here are working links to the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, just in case anyone needs to refresh their memory (and for the benefit of our non-American posters).
Not a problem. Please let me know when you lobby your legislators to have In God We Trust removed from our money, and barring the attainment of that would you prefer to be paid in rubles?
I suggest that nobody has a direct link to the great beyond, and are able to discern from this distance the spiritual mindset of our forefathers. Any side can twist and ‘interpret’ things until they are unrecognizable. My entire point in this tangent from the OP is that they most definitely established this nation with their eyes toward a higher power, turning their backs on governmental tyranny.
And BTW, Next time you choose to label someone a coward, I suggest you check all of your facts first; you’re just as capable of spouting tripe as the next poster.
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Do you even bother trying to eliminate your own ignorance? That was added in 1957. It offers evidence that in the 50’s people wanted it placed on money, certainly no evidence that we were founded on Christian principles.
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True, but there is a direct link to the other thread, where “our forefathers” are quoted stating that this was not founded as a christian nation.
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To quote “I suggest that nobody has a direct link to the great beyond, and are able to discern from this distance the spiritual mindset of our forefathers”. We do have quotes stating, from them!, that they did not do so. Yet, you are able to disregard that, and see what they really meant. Astounding. Where can I get this tremendous power.
Okay, kids … the discussion has been good, but let’s keep the personal comments to yourselves. Open a PIT thread is you feel you must.
Various atheist groups have sued over the motto; the courts have basically ruled that the phrase isn’t really religious, it’s just a meaningless rhetorical flourish, or some such. I don’t really understand this reasoning, but there you have it.
Now that’s just a cheap shot. (And an out-of-date cheap shot at that. Russia has gotten quite Christian of late; you should have said “yuan”.) I was born in the United States; both my parents were born in the United States; all four of my grandparents were born in the United States; the great majority of my ancestors (if not all of them) were born in the United States (or what later became the United States) for probably a couple of centuries back. I’m as American as anyone on Earth.
Russia has a very long history of Christianity. It was only with the Revolution that religion was outlawed. (All religion.)
…is the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which Thomas Jefferson considered one of his three most worthy achievements.
I think the Virginia Legislature might should read it, since it’s apparently still part of the Constitution of the Commonwealth. It may apply more specifically to the current effort to put “In God We Trust” on all state school buildings, but in broader principle, it seems to apply to the topic of this thread quite well too.
I don’t have any problem with the “Pledge”, prayer at graduation, etc.
For as many of these types of threads that constantly come up here at the SDMB, I’m still surprised that many of you become so outraged at this stuff.
Nobody is really harmed by this stuff…there are no damages.
I reserve the right to roll my eyes at your “outrage”.
C3 wrote:
Heck, it’s already on prominent display in our wallets, so that must make it okay. :rolleyes:
Do we raise them in a vacuum? No, we raise them in families, and parents must have the right to control what their children learn.
We’ve definetly heard the argument about voter turnout before, but you also have to consider that in many of the countries that we get compared to, voting is mandatory, and you can get fined for not showing up. Fur further discussio of this point, check the thread about ballot spoiling.
We are free because we remain vigiliant. I could not agree with that statement more. As this thread demonstrates, there are many people who carefully watch the government for signs of encroachment upon our rights, and respond accordingly when necessary.
Vestal Blue wrote:
When in U.S. history has voter turnout ever been different?
Goboy, you must’ve missed now-president Bush participating in a lawsuit brought against a Texas school board for forcing kids to participate in school prayer. Bush was on the school board’s side, the winning side consisted of a Catholic and a Mormon family, and it took the Supreme Court of the United States to decide that Bush’s aim is wrong.
Didn’t we discuss this already?
Yep; here it is!
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=55139
Guess its good to have a younger generation in here. I don’t know about you guys, or where you went to school, but I vividly recall my first grade teacher breaking down the Pledge into several parts, and explaining it to us.(even the big words!) Then, down through the years, I grew a very deep sense of patriotism. Yes I love my country. But, for the overall view point of it, I don’t think that it should be forced upon children to recite it. It needs to be a want to do it. Its just like water baptism. Why do people get little babies baptized? Jesus was nearly a grown man before he was. He did it to dedicate his life to god. Shouldn’t kids be given the time to make a choice on their own? Oh, well, I’m drifting off the subject here.
Well, Phil. Viva La Resistiance!!! Good Letter!
P.S-I’m 16 for all those wondering.
Such harsh words, oldscratch - especially in light of the fact that you yourself are promulgating fiction and ignorance, not fact. I would humbly suggest that the inclusion at least of an ‘IIRC’ would save you from criticism when you make mistakes. Your error is particularly irksome to me because you add such convincing detail: “That was added in 1957.” The hapless reader might well conclude you knew of whence you spoke.
Contrary to your claim above, however, ‘In God We Trust’ existed on money well before 1957. I am looking at a 1926 dime right now that has the phrase. In fact, all pennies since 1909, and all dimes since 1916, have the ‘In God We Trust’ motto. It has appeared on quarters, gold coins, silver dollars, and fifty-cent coins since 1908.
Nor are these examples the earliest. It first appeared in 1864, on the rare two-cent coin. All of these were pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1864, which mandated the inclusion of ‘In God We Trust’ on all coins, space and existing design permitting.
Perhaps you were thinking of Public Law 851, which became effective in 1956 and replaced the national motto ‘E Pluribus Unum,’ with ‘In God We Trust.’
I hope this is of some help.
- Rick
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True. My apologies, in my attempt to bend the stick I ended up breaking it in two. In God we Trust did not exist on paper currency before 1957. It was also not mandated on coinage before 1956. Nor was it a national motto.
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Correct. It was brought about, especially through the acts of one Rev. Watkinson. His request follows
So to state, and thank you for the corrections, “In god we trust” did not appear on currency for almost 100 years after the republic was founded. Even then it wasn’t a motto, and was not required in all cases. It wasn’t made a motto until 1957, and at that point was requirred on all coins.
My original point still stands.
The historian in me can’t let this go…The first four presidents of the U.S. were Diests, as was Ben Franklin and several other founding fathers. They believed in the concept of a “clockmaker” god, who set the universe in motion and then moved on. The Christian concept of a God involved in the lives of everday mankind was anathma to them, and in fact they, Jefferson in particular, fought against the inclusion of such ideas in the Constitution and D of I, as well as the Bill of Rights. If you look at the formation of the U.S. government, you will notice that it was unlike every European government of the time, in that it derived it’s power and justification from “the consent of the governed” NOT The “divine” right of kings. All European government of the time justified their power as an earthly extension of a Christian God’s power. The U.S specifically did not. A nation where a majority of the population was Christian? Yes. A “Christian” nation? Emphatically NO.
Do you folks who favor a forced recital really favor another reason to isolate students, thus subjecting them to ridicule, humiliation and ostracization? Even the stuffy Supreme Court recognizes that this would be a big problem for children in schools, and used the potential of isolating and separating students in this manner as a factor in striking down previous mandatory pledge laws. Didn’t we learn anything from Columbine??
According to this morning’s Washington Post, the “spineless pinkos” have watered down the proposed legislation to the point that the introducer has withdrawn it.
Chalk up one for civil liberties.
(I’m still glad I live in Maryland.)
Montfort, I nearly choked on my own tongue when I read that this morning. In 2001, this cocksucker is actually referring to civil libertarians as “spineless pinkos.” Un-fucking-believeable. And he said in the article that he received a “‘pretty thick folder’ of hate mail – the bulk of it from Northern Virginia,” and that if penalties were left to the school boards, “The school board would immediately have parents at their doorstep asking them to water it down.” Well, if it’s so apparent to him that parents and residents think this is a bad idea, why is he so insistent to get it passed? Could it be because he cares nothing for the supposed Republican concept of personal responsibility and less government?
So the petulant little beeyotch withdraws his bill even though it was going to pass. What a jackass. Even though he is not my state Senator, I fully intend to actively do what I can to ensure he loses his next election.