[QUOTE=Bill Door]
You don’t need a law allowing you to leave with your purchases, they need a law permitting them to detain you. Since I am not store personnel, and since once the cashier and I have exchanged the money for the products those products do not belong to the store but to me, what permits them to delay my departure? Absent probable cause, which everyone here agrees gives them the right to detain and search you, do you have a cite for that law?
[/QUOTE]
You are on their property and are present based on your compliance with their rules with regard to checkout procedures.
If you don’t like it, don’t shop there. Your rights are in part secondary to the rights of the business owner.
Once again you are asking me for law that allows, show me where I cannot search packages as I see fit on my property. Remember, your restriction has to fit almost any retail situation.
[QUOTE=drachillix]
Once again you are asking me for law that allows, show me where I cannot search packages as I see fit on my property. Remember, your restriction has to fit almost any retail situation.
[/QUOTE]
How about kidnapping and assault? My presence on your property does not give you the legal authority to detain and search me, even if you have a sign on the wall.
[QUOTE=mks57]
How about kidnapping and assault? My presence on your property does not give you the legal authority to detain and search me, even if you have a sign on the wall.
[/QUOTE]
Circumventing door checks could easily be construed legally to be the same as setting off an alarm on an RFID system. Since all the RFID system is, is an electronic door checker.
[QUOTE=drachillix]
Circumventing door checks could easily be construed legally to be the same as setting off an alarm on an RFID system. Since all the RFID system is, is an electronic door checker.
[/QUOTE]
Poorly worded
Refusing a door checker would be considered little different than refusing to pass through an RFID array. They both do the same thing, just the RFID version is faster.
[QUOTE=drachillix]
Uh, these people are just as much part of the checkout process as the cashier.
[/quote]
Are you on crack? They are NOT part of the check out process. That process is pretty simple: I present the merchandise I wish to pay for, the cashier tallies the total cost including any applicable taxes and minus any applicable discounts, informs me of the total cost, I present a valid form of payment, am presented with a receipt which I may accept or decline, and go on my merry way with my lawfully purchased goods.
NOBODY has a right to stop me to enquire if I have actually payed for the goods I’m carrying UNLESS they have a VALID reason to suspect that I have shoplifted.
When I discover that a place is doing the “please present your receipt so I can verify that you’re not a lousy thief” method, I inform them that I will no longer shop there and they’re not stopping or searching me without a valid reason.
Are you reading what you’re writing? What does the expression “within the bounds of the law” mean to you?
Store personnel are bound by the law, though. If they wish to search me, they need a reason to do t hat other than that I just happen to be on their publicly accessible property going about my lawful business of shopping.
[QUOTE=drachillix]
Circumventing door checks could easily be construed legally to be the same as setting off an alarm on an RFID system. Since all the RFID system is, is an electronic door checker.
[/QUOTE]
It’s still a bad idea, and a poor excuse for probable cause.
[QUOTE=Monty]
Store personnel are bound by the law, though. If they wish to search me, they need a reason to do t hat other than that I just happen to be on their publicly accessible property going about my lawful business of shopping.
[/QUOTE]
Do you see RFID arrays as performing a different task than door checkers?
[QUOTE=Monty]
Are you on crack? They are NOT part of the check out process..
[/QUOTE]
In my hypothetical store where I have deemed them needed, yes they are.
My business, my policies. If I am willing to lose you as a customer, it dosen’t matter what you think. If I percieve that my door checkers save me more money than the few customers offended by their presence bring in, sorry you feel that way.
[QUOTE=dwc1970]
Kind of hard to do these days without getting caught because of all them black bubbles mounted in the ceiling.
[/QUOTE]
I have friends that work at wal-mart and have noticed how the store works after being there all the time at 2 in the morning (There is nothing to do in this town past 8 and I’m walking, it’s excersise, whatever) and I can tell you this: They have NO real security.
Consider how many domes are in an average Wal-mart. They wouldn’t waste the money for every single on of those cameras, their matching monitor, and the price of having someone watch them 24/7. Especially considering that employee theft is a bigger problem as many of the people in this thread have stated. Very few of those domes have ANYTHING inside of them. Why would they need one over produce? Do they really need to catch people stealing grapes? That one is fake. I would put money on it that the only real ones are over the checkouts and electronics.
Places like Target and Best Buy have security trailing the store randomly but I can tell you Wal-mart doesn’t (at least the two near me). I know most of the people that work there, none of them work security or have ever mentioned someone that works security. Plus, I wander in there all the time at 2 in the morning looking hungover and not buying anything and I have yet to be questioned or followed. And I know when someone is following me because I love messing with security. I start to stalk them if they do it to me, it is revenge for assuming any male under 30 is shoplifting.
Wal-mart’s stores are generally too big to control by physical means so they do it by fear. People are less likely to steal if they think they are on camera, that is why the black domes are there. It puts the ‘what if?’ fear into them for the price of a plexiglass dome.
[QUOTE=drachillix]
Not at all, I just refuse to believe that my rights on my property are somehow secondary to yours.
[/QUOTE]
Well they are, if the right you are asserting is the right to unlawfully detain and search a customer and the right the customer is asserting is the right to leave with their completed purchases. Once the cashier takes my money the contract between us is complete, you can not add additional requirements after the fact.
Suppose a restaurant ordered you to empty your pockets on the way out, just to make sure you hadn’t filled them with sugar packets and silverware? Is that a problem for you?
I have no problem stopping at Costco, that’s a member situation and I agreed, in writing, that they could revoke my membership for failing to stop, but I have no such agreement with your store, and will refuse to comply. If there was force used to detain me I probably wouldn’t knock down a door drone, but I promise you that force is what it would take to stop me.
[QUOTE=drachillix]
In my hypothetical store where I have deemed them needed, yes they are.
My business, my policies. If I am willing to lose you as a customer, it dosen’t matter what you think. If I percieve that my door checkers save me more money than the few customers offended by their presence bring in, sorry you feel that way.
[/QUOTE]
Well, sure, but what if the customer you’re willing to alienate is willing to take his company’s business to a competitor? Or what if he’s willing to tell his friends? Are you willing to risk losing what could be tens or hundreds of potential customers because of the one you chose to single out?
[QUOTE=MsRobyn]
Well, sure, but what if the customer you’re willing to alienate is willing to take his company’s business to a competitor? Or what if he’s willing to tell his friends? Are you willing to risk losing what could be tens or hundreds of potential customers because of the one you chose to single out?
[/QUOTE]
I think Wal*Mart has taught us that there is only one thing a retailer can do to lose customers.
Have high prices.
If you keep prices down, you practically have to spit on your customers to get them to consider paying more elsewhere. Dirty stores, long lines, surly employees, confusing layouts, and people go back to these stores again and again. Clean "mom and pop"stores with helpful staff close left and right once a megastore with lower prices shows up.
Note what most of the anti-check posters say. They walk past the receipt checkers after giving a bunch of money to the company that has this horrid policy. Interesting, no? God forbid they pay a little bit more, and frequent a store that treats customers with respect. They give their money to the bad company, and complain about their policies.
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
I think Wal*Mart has taught us that there is only one thing a retailer can do to lose customers.
Have high prices.
If you keep prices down, you practically have to spit on your customers to get them to consider paying more elsewhere. Dirty stores, long lines, surly employees, confusing layouts, and people go back to these stores again and again. Clean "mom and pop"stores with helpful staff close left and right once a megastore with lower prices shows up.
Note what most of the anti-check posters say. They walk past the receipt checkers after giving a bunch of money to the company that has this horrid policy. Interesting, no? God forbid they pay a little bit more, and frequent a store that treats customers with respect. They give their money to the bad company, and complain about their policies.
[/QUOTE]
Ever since a large shopping center with a Kohl’s and a Target opened in my town this spring, I have had zero reason to go to Wal-Mart. Target’s prices are competitive with Wal-Mart’s, and the store is much cleaner, better organized, and the service is worlds better than Wal-Mart’s.
That said, I was making the assumption that drachillix was talking about a hypothetical smaller store, not one the size of a big-box retailer.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Well, for one thing, you can’t walk out of Wal-Mart without going past a cashier; or, to be more precise, all legitimate transactions wil exit from the cashier area. I have no objection to security stopping someone who is attemping to walk out the front door with a load of stuff in her cart. Not quite the same thing as exiting from the cashier area with stuff in a bag.
[/QUOTE]
The only walmart that checks receipts in this area is the one that has self check out lanes. I figured they were doing it to stop people from scanning a few items, then just loading the rest into the bag without paying for them.
[QUOTE=Bill Door]
Well they are, if the right you are asserting is the right to unlawfully detain and search a customer and the right the customer is asserting is the right to leave with their completed purchases. Once the cashier takes my money the contract between us is complete, you can not add additional requirements after the fact.
[/QUOTE]
Can I require that my customers pass through an RFID array as they leave?
I can add anything you will agree to comply with and if you refuse to comply, I can refuse to do business with you. Businesses do things all the time that you would probably find abhorrent or overly invasive, just depends on the customer and or the nature of the relationship. Would you want to leave a credit card or bank info on file with the merchant to do business with them, fill out a 4 page application to shop there?
For the record, I have no intention of ever applying this type of policy in my business. Even with significant growth I would much rather continue to operate in more of a parts counter mode. However, I have no problem with a business choosing to do so if it fits their plans.
I do tend to shop with smaller stores, not because of any lack of door checkers, but because I am not a big fan of the crowds and noise level in many of the big stores. For my business I occasionally buy a part from BestBuy or CompUSA, but only because I saw they had something for 15-20% cheaper than my usual suppliers on a specific item I need.
[QUOTE=MsRobyn]
Well, sure, but what if the customer you’re willing to alienate is willing to take his company’s business to a competitor? Or what if he’s willing to tell his friends? Are you willing to risk losing what could be tens or hundreds of potential customers because of the one you chose to single out?
Robin
[/QUOTE]
In this hypothetical, yes, chance I take.
All of my argements presented are based on if I was a huge BestBuy/Walmart/Sam’s Club scale store. Smaller stores have way less customer traffic making such security measures inefficent and unneeded. If one employee cannot keep tabs on 2-3 customers browsing you don’t have a theft problem, you have an employee problem.
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
Note what most of the anti-check posters say. They walk past the receipt checkers after giving a bunch of money to the company that has this horrid policy. Interesting, no? God forbid they pay a little bit more, and frequent a store that treats customers with respect. They give their money to the bad company, and complain about their policies.
[/QUOTE]
Personally I think its hilarious. Sometimes it makes me want to go build a huge store, stock millions of dollars in merchandise and then have two checkout areas. One is 2% cheaper, the other has door checkers. I wonder which lines would be longer. Then again big box retailers can test this on a massive scale and have and come to the conclusion that door checkers are worth it.
