War on Christmas - revisited

[Starving_Artist]

@Kalhoun

Any effort to put christianity in its place is ok in my book. christmas…it’s not just for christians anymore. The day was never “owned” by them in the first place and it’s high time society let them know it. Setting it off as something exclusive to christians is “feeding the trolls” as far as I’m concerned. It’s the principle.

Yeah, the nerve of those Christians, thinking they can have a religious holiday based on their faith when everyone else wants to appropriate it for a non-denominational party day…and one whose name must not be mentioned, at that! What gall!

Thanks for lending flesh and blood life to the kind of thinking I’m talking about. :rolleyes:

[Kalhoun]

@Starving Artist

Yeah, the nerve of those Christians, thinking they can have a religious holiday based on their faith when everyone else wants to appropriate it for a non-denominational party day…and one whose name must not be mentioned, at that! What gall!

Thanks for lending flesh and blood life to the kind of thinking I’m talking about. :rolleyes:

You’re right. The* nerve*. Look…no one is telling them they can’t have a religious holiday based on their faith. I’m saying that just because they believe they own the day doesn’t make it so.

[Starving_Artist]

@Kalhoun

You’re right. The* nerve*. Look…no one is telling them they can’t have a religious holiday based on their faith. I’m saying that just because they believe they own the day doesn’t make it so.

I’m hard pressed to make the distinction, I’m afraid. Do you feel Muslims have no right to own Ramadan or that Jews have no right to own (whatever that means) Hanukkah? Does just anyone have the right to turn Hanukkah into whatever kind of celebration they want, up to and including the abandonment of all the traditional rites and trappings of Hanukkah, and then assail those of Jewish faith who object? I doubt that you’ll seriously answer yes.

[Kalhoun]

@Starving Artist

I’m hard pressed to make the distinction, I’m afraid. Do you feel Muslims have no right to own Ramadan or that Jews have no right to own (whatever that means) Hanukkah? Does just anyone have the right to turn Hanukkah into whatever kind of celebration they want, up to and including the abandonment of all the traditional rites and trappings of Hanukkah, and then assail those of Jewish faith who object? I doubt that you’ll seriously answer yes.

You’re missing the whole point. Because it is a faith-based celebration, it can ONLY be celebrated from within each person to do so. They chose a day to do it. Great. No one is telling them they can’t celebrate on that day. I’m saying that I don’t have to join in, reserve the day for you, or even RESPECT what you’re doing! I will defend your right to believe whatever it is you believe, but please don’t ask me to pretend I’m one of you.

[Starving_Artist]

@Kalhoun

You’re missing the whole point. Because it is a faith-based celebration, it can ONLY be celebrated from within each person to do so. They chose a day to do it. Great. No one is telling them they can’t celebrate on that day. I’m saying that I don’t have to join in, reserve the day for you, or even RESPECT what you’re doing! I will defend your right to believe whatever it is you believe, but please don’t ask me to pretend I’m one of you.

My complaint has nothing to do with insisting others join in; it has to do with others who disapprove wanting to make mine disappear.

[Starving_Artist]

And now I’m afraid I must call it a night.

Many regards,
SA

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Starving Artist

No, I think that it’s taken hold in much the same way that political correctness itself has taken hold: it appeals to ‘impassioned do-gooders’ who are perfectly willing to trample the rights of the majority in an effort to try to assure that no minority is offended; and to those who oppose Christianity itself for political reasons and would therefore like to see its influence in society negated to the greatest degree possible.

1. Whose rights are being trampled, and what are those rights?
2. Have these do-gooders who are trampling rights, trying to ensure that no minority is offended, who oppose Christianity, and who would like to see Christianity’s social influence negated–have they produced any written record whatsoever of their successful attempts to put this program in place? I can point you toward campus hate-speech policies if you’re looking for proof of what you call political correctness. Can you point me toward anything similar?
   2a) If not, why not? Why has such a broad-reaching social trend as the one you’ve described produced so little in the way of a paper trail? What makes this social trend so different from all others?
3. You attribute things such as “Holiday trees” to this phantom movement. It seems to me that there is a much likelier explanation. Executives think, “Okay, we’re getting a lot of shoppers for Christmas. But we want more shoppers! More, more, MORE!” (WIth me so far, or do you disagree that retailers want to maximize profits?) “Let’s see if we can draw in Hannukah shoppers without getting rid of Christmas shoppers. Let’s call it a Holiday Sale, not a Christmas Sale! I don’t want to see the word Christmas appearing in any of our promotional material!”

At which point midlevel management hears this and says, “Hmm. We call them ‘Christmas trees,’ but apparently the boss doesn’t want us to do that. Holiday trees it is, then.”

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to cupidity. There’s a benign explanation here that doesn’t require a cultural Gestalt that acts like a ninja in the night, striking from the shadows and returning to the dark just as quickly.

Daniel

[Kalhoun]

@Starving Artist

My complaint has nothing to do with insisting others join in; it has to do with others who disapprove wanting to make mine disappear.

No one can make it disappear. It is faith-based and completely, utterly internal to you.

[Gadarene]

Bricker, when you get a chance, could you respond to Shayna’s post(s) regarding Plano?

Thanks.

[hawthorne]

[Reads page] This chilling effect, Bricker - is it net or gross?

[Shodan]

@tomndebb

Since, of two examples, only one was followed by a lawsuit, and since that lawsuit was, indeed, legitimate, you needed to ignore the other one that it is unreasonable to interpret a letter as even exerting pressure. A letter that makes an inquiry is simply a letter that makes an inquiry. A letter that makes a claim of illegality may be considered an effort to exert pressure, but the mere sending of a letter of inquiry (which is how the letter was described in both cases) does not.

Boy, this is really dumb. I mean, it’s really dumb - you aren’t even close to making any sense.

Your point, as far as can be told, is that one example is invalid because it isn’t a different example. Which is so bizarre as to defy analysis.

You cite an example of why an ACLU letter can be interpreted as pressure, because it is followed by a lawsuit. Then you complain when I use it as an example of why an ACLU letter can be interpreted as pressure. And then follow up with your usual nonsense of accusing anyone who debates you of bad motives.

Sorry, you are just wrong here. If you are trying to pretend that I claimed that ACLU letters are always followed by lawsuits, that is mere strawman argumentation.

And you haven’t produced any evidence of your assertions, as requested. I assume, therefore, that you are withdrawing the accusation as unfounded.

Regards,
Shodan

[Ludovic]

@Starving Artist

My complaint has nothing to do with insisting others join in; it has to do with others who disapprove wanting to make mine disappear.

Who wants to do so? :rolleyes:. The only actual phenomena cited in this thread are:

1. Movements to make holiday governmental celebrations and decorations more inclusive.
2. Retailers trying to be inclusive, not because they want to, but because they think it’s good business.
3. Governmental and other organizations pro-actively modifying celebrations due to a misplaced fear of lawsuits.

In no case does anyone wish to prevent you from celebrating Christmas, even in the public sphere.

#2 puts retailers in a hard place. There are plenty of very Christian people who think that Christmas is overcommercialized and that businesses are just advertising Christmas to get business. If the businesses put up preachers, bibles, and nativity scenes to cater to that crowd they would definitely lose business to those of other religions. OTOH, other people will complain if they are more inclusive. WTF should they do? It’s not about wanting to take anything away from you.

[Kalhoun]

@Ludovic

#2 puts retailers in a hard place. There are plenty of very Christian people who think that Christmas is overcommercialized and that businesses are just advertising Christmas to get business. If the businesses put up preachers, bibles, and nativity scenes to cater to that crowd they would definitely lose business to those of other religions. OTOH, other people will complain if they are more inclusive. WTF should they do? It’s not about wanting to take anything away from you.

Bolding mine.

We have a Hobby Lobby near our house that is closed on Sunday so their employees can worship.

1. how obnoxious to assume that all their employees need an entire day to worship (and thereby deny them a day’s pay). Hey…I know it’s their right…I’m just sayin’.

2. Sunday is practically the only day I can shop there. They’ve repeatedly lost sales from me and people I know because of their bizarre schedule.

3. Bad business much?

[Bricker]

@Gadarene

Bricker, when you get a chance, could you respond to Shayna’s post(s) regarding Plano?

Thanks.

I think the Plano letter, when (if) I get it, will settle the issue one way or the other. If the letter is from the district or the principal, as I’ve been given to understand, and claims that no red or green decorations are permitted as a matter of policy, that will prove my claims. If it does not, then I’ll have little choice but to withdraw Plano as an example.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Bricker

I think the Plano letter, when (if) I get it, will settle the issue one way or the other. If the letter is from the district or the principal, as I’ve been given to understand, and claims that no red or green decorations are permitted as a matter of policy, that will prove my claims. If it does not, then I’ll have little choice but to withdraw Plano as an example.

To nitpick a bit, the claim we’re investigating is this

@Bricker

The plaintiffs specifically said, in their interview with Gibson, that the principal told them the no-red-and-green decorations was intended to forbid Christmas colors.

There are alternate reasons for a policy forbidding red or green decorations: for example (and what I suspect actually happened), the school may have a policy of allowing community groups to use school grounds for events and allowing the community groups to determine how the event will be decorated. If this is what happened, the PTA may have declared that there should be a white color theme, which would indirectly result in a school policy forbidding red or green decorations at this event, but would not be intended to forbid Christmas colors.

Daniel

[Patty_O_Furniture]

@Starving Artist

[Paraphrasing the position of Target, et al]

“We want you to buy your Christmas gifts from us, but we’re gonna pretend [christmas] doesn’t exist, because after all, Christmas is anti-PC, you know!”

Is this saying that calling a thing by a different name is the same as pretending the thing doesn’t exist?

[Patty_O_Furniture]

@Starving Artist

Well, I can tell you first hand that the word Christmas appeared absolutely nowhere (apart from the card section, I suppose) at the Target store I was in. And a week or so before Christmas I got an Ace Hardware circular in the mail in which the word Christmas appeared nowhere.

But both were selling ‘Holiday Trees’.

The phrase “holiday tree” hurts my ears. I did a LOT of shopping in Target stores this past christmas looking specifically for decorations and a tree stand. I had to go to 3 or 4 different stores because they were all sold out of stands. I am quite certain I didn’t hear the phrase “holiday tree” because it would have made me wince.

This year, we need to take careful notes. We have enough members spread across the country to catch any mechant’s attempt to kill christmas.

[wonky]

Just out of curiosity, are those who are sure there’s a “war” that isn’t a war on christmas offended if a business sends them a “Happy Holidays” greeting card?

My company always uses Happy Holidays. We have Jewish customers and don’t want to have two card lists. Making one list, having one card imprint, that’s cheaper and easier.

Are we horrible sinners for doing it? Did we oppress someone?

[tomndebb]

@Starving Artist

The thing is, I’ve never asserted any such conspiracy. To me, it’s simply a movement that has come into being in some way that I’m at a loss to explain. Similarly, how does fashion take root? Why does something become fashionable, and who starts it? Who’s really behind it? I don’t know; it just happens. This is how I view the fact that the ‘war on Christmas’ has come into being. I’ve never asserted anything like you describe above for the simple reason that I don’t believe it.

And yet, you are willing to make the rather silly comment

I am hard pressed to think of a more egregious example of PC nonsense than this.

Your comment that started this tangent was your facetious remark

because after all, Christmas is anti-PC, you know!

I did not claim there was a conspiracy. I did not claim that you said that there was a conspiracy (although I parenthetically noted that claim which has issued from the the usual suspects). I wondered where the notion that “Christmas is anti-PC” orginated and if it had been documented. You responded with a straw man claiming I was demanding proof, from you, of the movement. That is not what I said.
On the other hand, claiming that Christmas is “anti-PC”, even if said facetiously, is an affirmative statement that ought to be supported or withdrawn. Claiming that “holiday trees” is related in some way to “PC” also needs to be supported. Kalhoun’s suggestion of the process looks a lot more like what I have seen in retail (and corporations, in general), than any effort to impose “political correctness” on anything. Where is any evidence that Christmas is “anti-PC” (whatever the heck that means) in the context of a retailer?

Or am I misunderstanding your point because you are one of those people who thinks that “previously owned” is “PC” for “used” because you believe that all euphemisms must have a political origin? Advertising has been aimed at euphemistic language for a lot longer than either of us have been around–long before anyone worried about being “politically correct.” If you are simply using “PC” to mean “advertising euphemisms” I could see your point, more easily. (I would disagree with your choice of vocabulary, but I could see your point.) On the other hand, the idea that WalMart–the same WalMart that is hated by the “Left” for censorship of its products, “monopolistic” tendencies, “abuse” of employees, “threats” to small retailers throughout America, and numerous other charges–has, for some odd reason, linked up with that same “Left” to deliberately downplay Christmas is just odd.

Since Medved only got the ball rolling by coining his “War” phrase in 2000 or 2001, when do you think the “movement” started and why do you believe it has anything to do with “PC” or “liberals” or anything else? (And why did it take 40 years for Medved to notice stuff that was documented in Peanuts cartoons in the 1950s?) I have provided testimony that this secularization of Christmas began before the 1960s. Are you really going to assert that there was any “liberal” effort to destroy <whatever it is you think is being destroyed> during the era of JFK or Ike? If you just noticed it recently, where were you for the last 40 years?

I don’t know how it is that I ‘seem’ to you to hold so many positions that I don’t hold in actuality, but there you are.

Because you posted the following, linking a retail phenomenon that you had already described as “sudden” (despite that I have watched it for decades) to separate efforts to more rigorously enforce the Establishment Clause.

In my case, I first became aware of the Happy Holiday (or more accurately, the suppression of Merry Christmas) movement a couple of years ago when I began to notice pained expressions from employees at the stores where I shop whenever I said Merry Christmas. I then - subconsciously and without even thinking much about it - began to equate this with the removal of Christmas scenes and mention from public view on constitutional grounds and the overall thrust of the PC movement. I then noticed that libs all over the country were defending the substitution of HH for Merry Christmas (as well as the concomitant suppression of the latter), and so my suspicions were confirmed. O’Reilly, Hannity, etc, had nothing to do with it.

[BrainGlutton]

Am I the only Doper who is embarrassed by the longevity of this stupid nonthread?!