War on Christmas - revisited

Great Debates
461

Things must be very different where Bricker and Starving Artist live. You see, around here, on Christmas Day, the local liberal newspaper had the words “Merry Christmas” and a large photo occupying the front page from the masthead to well below the fold. “Happy Hanukkah” also appeared on the front page but it was beneath the photo and below the fold. Not only were Christmas sales heavily advertised, so were Day After Christmas sales. I did see one letter to the editor complaining about being wished “Happy Holidays”, but I don’t really recall any stores wishing me “Happy Holidays” only. Then again, I try to avoid malls between Thanksgiving and Christmas if at all possible.

There are a few things which would indicate a “War On Christmas” if I were to believe such a thing was going on, but, strangely, these are points I don’t see being raised by anyone claiming Christmas is under attack.
[ul][li]First, several churches, including at least one in my city, deliberately didn’t hold service on Christmas Day, even though it was a Sunday, because they wanted to allow people to spend time with their families. While I realize Christmas is a very busy time for ministers and people who work for churches (I do sing with the choir, after all), not holding services on Christmas morning or on a Sunday does not sit right with me. That seems to be the church taking the religious aspects out of Christmas, which is just plain wrong.[/li][li]Second, if any group of Christians has a right to complain about Christmas being attacked or diminished in importance, I’d say it’s the Orthodox Christians who celebrate Christmas a week later than other Christians. By the time their Christmas rolls around, Christmas is seen as being over. However, despite the large number of Orthodox Christians in my city, I haven’t heard them complain Christmas is being attacked, even though there weren’t banner headlines wishing them a “Merry Christmas”.[/li][li]Third, in Episcopalian and Catholic traditions, Christmas itself lasts 12 days, until January 6th, yet in pop culture, Christmas is depicted as being over on December 25th. My family enjoys celebrating Boxing Day, the day after Christmas, with friends, yet, here in the US, we’re seen as a little odd for doing so. I wouldn’t think of taking Christmas decorations down before January 6th, yet there are people who think nothing of taking down their decorations on Boxing Day. [/ul][/li]I admit I wish people “Happy Holidays” if I don’t know what religion they are. I also buy two sets of Christmas cards – one explicitly Christian, one not – because some of my closest friends aren’t Christian. I give a Christian one to my building manager, who I know is a Christian, and a secular one to the man who delivers my newspapers, because I don’t know what religion he is. By doing so, am I attacking Christianity or respecting another person by not assuming he’s something he may not be?

There’s also a slight matter of a pop song that’s been getting a lot of airplay during the past couple of months. While I can’t remember the title or the artist, the chorus of the song goes like this:

I admit the song never mentions the word “Christmas”, but the lyrics make it quite clear that it is Christmas the singer’s talking about. I don’t listen to Christian radio; I’ve heard this on a rock and roll station several times. It’s a good song, and I haven’t heard any objections to it.

On the subject of music, whether or not stores and their employees are wishing people “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”, the stores haven’t stopped playing Christmas carols incessantly from Thanksgiving to Christmas. If they start taking carols out of stores for Christmas, then I may start worrying.

Bricker, Starving Artist, I understand you have sincere concerns about the secularization of Christmas, but, frankly, I’m not seeing it. It seems to me that what has changed is that, instead of people complaining about the commercialization of Christmas, they’ve changed to complaining that Christmas is under attack. I read about this stuff, but I was also caught in a bit of a traffic jam on Christmas Eve when my church’s early service let out shortly before the Catholic church across the street’s early service started. We nearly had gridlock! I see a church’s not holding services on Christmas Day as a greater matter for concern about what we’re making Christmas into than a tired store clerk’s wishing me “Happy Holidays”. In 1 Corinthians 9 St. Paul talks about showing respect to others, saying "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. " Showing respect to someone whose beliefs I do not know by wishing them “Happy Holidays” seems to me far more in keeping with this teaching than complaining that Christmas is somehow under attack.

Respectfully,
CJ
Happy Epiphany!

462

[ bolding mine ]

??

So far, I have not seen any evidence that any “rights” have been abridged.
On those few occasions when (anecdotally) an employee has been told to use the phrase “Happy Holidays” rather than “Merry Christmas,” (or to avoid saying anything?), there has been no evidence that anyone on “the Left” has has done anything to create that situation–no lawsuits, no court orders, no legislation, no public protests. It generally seems to have originated internally to each organization without any outside pressure.

(And, of course, it appears that many of these incidents have been blown out of proportion or manufactured out of whole cloth–such as the claim that any Illinois empoyee was told to refrain from saying “Merry Christmas” which is widely reported as fact despite no one actually being able to find the order or a news (not blog) report of the order.)

Claiming that a “right” has been violated is silly unless you can provide evidence of actual interference. Blaming it of “Political Correctness” (and ignoring the standard marketing movement toward unspecified blandness) is worse than silly unless you can provide evidence that all these major retailers have bowed to some sort of actual pressure.

463

Dude…you must live in a parallel universe. No one told ANYONE they couldn’t say “Merry Christmas.” It is a marketing decision (notice the blatant lack of christianity…it ain’t about the religion, my friend. It’s all about the $$$) to be all-inclusive. The word “holiday” recognizes anyone who chooses to celebrate something. The fact that some merchants choose to include everyone doesn’t support your claim that christian rights are being infringed.

464

WHO told you you shouldn’t say “Merry Christmas?” You wanna shout it from the rooftops? Have at it! You’re harping on an imaginary act of oppression. It sounds more like you want to forcibly recruit more christians rather than enjoy your constitutional right to practice christianity. Or free speech.

465

I’d also like to mention that red and green napkins bleed dye if they get wet.

And that dye doesn’t come out. Ever.

466

No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition.

We’ll hold a cozy spot in the gulag for you. :rolleyes:

467

Seems to me that somewhere in this thread I concurred with the point that the actions of the ACLU don’t constitute a war on Christmas. Didn’t I?

468

First of all, specifically for Bricker, but also for Starving Artist, here’s a key question that I posted earlier in the thread that got ignored:

To expand on that a bit, I know some pretty damn liberal people. One of my cousins and his wife produce and perform in environmentally-themed musical theater. He refers to driving a car as the “sin of ignition”. A different cousin is a radical feminist lesbian in Berkeley. I attended a liberal arts college where one of my English classes was basically “victimization studies”. I’ve had long talks with some friends about how we both wish “In God We Trust” wasn’t on US currency. And NONE of these people has EVER expressed any desire to remove Christianity from the US, or from all public view. So, what, am I just hanging out with the wrong liberals?

Even on the SDMB, noted for its liberal leanings and Shodan’s oft-whined-about “usual suspects”, how many posts can you find in which people actually advocate the banning or outlawing or goverment- or societal-sanction of the practice of Christianity? The number might not be ZERO, particularly if you assume that anyone who believes that Organized Religion is a Bad Thing also wants to ban it (which is certainly an incorrect assumption), but that’s certainly NOT a belief that is has any meaningful support at all.
The closest I’ve ever come to encountering that mythical anti-Christian position is a Jewish friend who is a public school teacher who thinks that there should not even be Christmas trees in public schools, and draws the line of what is and is not accpetable holiday symbology in a more restrictive fashion than I myself would. But her views still definitely fall into the reasonable-people-might-disagree part of the bell curve. And her best friend (for whom she was the maid of honor) is a devout Christian. She’s not trying to destroy Christmas or Christianity, she just grew up Jewish in Minnesota, and is a lot more keenly aware of what it’s like to be a non-Christian when there’s an overwhelming and vocal Christian majority than some of us are.

To sum up my position, I think there are two types of things that are actually happening:
(1) There are some lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, and perceived threats of lawsuits directed at schools, city halls, libraries, and so forth
(2) Some retailers are trying to avoid using the word “Christmas”, in some contexts

I don’t think either of these is particularly important or relevant. Sure, there are some lawsuits. Why wouldn’t there be some? The precise line of what level of observance of something like Christmas, with its religious and secular aspects, is acceptable in different contexts in and relating to publically funded things like a school, is a blurry one. Right-minded and patriotic and reasonable Americans who are not stereotypical monsters of the left or the right can still disagree about those issues. Thus, there is conflict. Thus, there are some lawsuits. Absent some evidence of a recent RISE in lawsuits, all that we have learned is that, golly, that’s not quite a cut and dried issue. Never has been. Likely never will.

And sure, some retailers are trying to avoid using the word “Christmas”. Well, that’s a reasonable thing for them to try to do to maximize their profits. Not necessarily the RIGHT thing, but there’s certainly some logic that might make them think that it would work. There’s also an argument the other way. But I’m extraordinarily skeptical that the decisions made by companies like Wal-Mart are motivated by anything other than 99% profit motive.

There is one basically real trend, which I’ve mentioned before, which is that American society is becoming generally more pluralistic. If you look at demographics from 1950 to today, the percentage of Americans who are Christians, and the percentage who are active and practicing Christians, have both been dropping. It’s inevitable that this would lead to some drop in the public visibility of Christianity. How is there anything wrong with that?

So, anyhow, to sum up all the disparate points of this post:
(1) There’s a general increase in pluralism in American society
(2) There are some number of court cases about where the precise line of accpetable visible Christmas stuff is in various public institutions. In some cases, people pushed too far one way, and in some, they pushed too far the other way. Perfectly natural
(3) Some retailers thought they could make more money by appealing more to non-Christians by de-emphasizing the religious aspect of Christmas. They may or may not have been right
(4) Some people on the right wing believe that there’s a cabal of Liberal PC probable-homosexual communist green party tree-hugging Atheists out to Destroy Christianity
(5) They look at (1) (2) and (3) with the mindset they have because of (4), toss in some hysteria and a desire to sell books, and presto, you get The War On Christmas.

469

Bravo! Standing ovation!

470

Unless I am mistaken doesn’t your evidence for the “War on Christmas” rest on actions by the ACLU? Are you then concurring that there is no “War on Christmas”?

471

treis, have you read this thread in its entirety?

472

Bricker, have you?

473

Only to the extent that you disavowed “War on Christmas” as useful terminology.

Forgive me if I’m mistaken but it seems to me that you still consider ACLU lawsuits to be evidence of something, you’ve just agreed not to call it a “war”. As such, the overall thrust of comments directed at you since your original concurrance don’t seem to be out of line.

If I may attempt to paraphrase: the basic argument is that the actions of the ACLU should not be considered at all because the ACLU are fundamentally neutral vis-à-vis Christmas. In other words: no ACLU action can be considered part of whatever movement or trend or non-war-phenomenon-against-Christmas that you might be seeing.

Think back to the post in which you stated that corporate exclusions of “Merry Christmas” as a marketing tool cannot be considered evidence of the unwar-against-Christmas … provided that the decision is sincerely unconnected to fear of a lawsuit, boycott, negative publicity, etc.

I wonder if you would think it fair to extend the same consideration to any group that files or threatens to file a lawsuit against a government agency over a government-subsidized celebration of Christmas. If they are doing so out of a sincere concern for issues of separation of church and state, wouldn’t it follow that their actions must be excluded from the overall body of evidence that points toward the unwar-against-Christmas that you describe? I’m not asking if you believe this to be the case for the ACLU … I’m only asking if the proposition makes sense to you hypothetically.

If you disagree with the proposition:
I still don’t understand why.

If you agree with the proposition but don’t believe that it applies to the ACLU:
I think that there are a great many arguments in this thread that you need to address. First among these would be the apparent neutrality of the ACLU with regard to Christianity in general, as demonstrated by** tomndebb’s** examples (among others).

474

Yes I have.

475

I agree with you! There will always be some people who will say, “You shouldn’t say this” and “You shouldn’t say that.” They also have a right to SAY what they think should and shouldn’t be allowed. That too is part of freedom of speech. That is quite different from saying that you can’t say it!

Who has said that you can’t say “Merry Christmas”? Nobody.

There may be a few retail employers who have instructed their employees to say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas.” I don’t know if there is a lot of hard evidence, but it does make logical sense. An employer has the right to do that and THAT IS NOTHING NEW! People have said that in stores all of my life and I am 62 or 63. (I forget). :slight_smile: That has nothing to do with any political movement left or right.

When “Merry Christmas” is wished in other languages, are they “leaving Christ out” just because the words don’t have “Christ” in them?

No one wants you to hide in your home to celebrate Christmas! Who is saying that to you? Where do you see that in our words, friend? Where can you not say “Merry Christmas” or celebrate openly? You just can’t force anyone else to do it your way or intrude upon their rights.

Unlike the Soviet Union, the State must have no control over our religious preferences one way or the other.

Between now and next Christmas, try to find signs of groups actually speaking out against the right of anyone to use the word “Christmas.” It has to be more than hearsay. Fair enough?

476

Starving Artist, out of curiousity, how would you feel if a clerk at a store wished you a “Good Yule” or a “Happy Hanukkah”? How would you feel if clerks at every store you went to in December did this?

Can you see how someone who wasn’t a Christian and who might well have been having a rotten day for other reasons might get fed up when wished a “Merry Christmas” one too many times and complain to the manager of the store that he’s tired of being told to enjoy a holiday which he doesn’t celebrate and having his own holiday overlooked? Could you see how the store manager might consider what he said, perhaps after muttered “Bah, humbug!”, and realize that this person does have a point and suggest that employees wish people “Happy Holidays” or drop any kind of a holiday greeting, not out of any desire to eliminate Christmas, but to show respect for people who aren’t Christians?

I admit the latter is a scenario I cooked up as an example, not something I know actually happened, but as someone who hates shopping, I can see how it could come about.

CJ

477

Anyone?

478

I agree. I’d hope Bricker does too, but I don’t think he’s ready to back down and admit defeat just yet.

The panic about the War on Christmas was created by religious superiorists who, like the Talaban and other oppressive religious groups, feel that their religion is the right one for all Americans (it’s not) and maybe if they can just get everyone to pretend they believe, it will somehow eventually seep into government and EVERYONE will be one big happy christian family. Except for the very real (and scary) *seeping * part (we’ll call that the War on Separation of Church and State), it’s simply not gonna happen. Luckily, we have laws in this country that protect things like religious freedom and freedom of speech.

479

I agree with you,and feel the people who think there is a war on anything Christian are paranoid and need everyone to believe the same as they or maybe they would be proved wrong. Didn’t the Pharisees have sort of the same argument,and loved to flaunt their religious beliefs and it seems to me that Jesus was not too fond of them because of it.

Monavis

480

Including the post where I said there was NOT a war on Christmas? And including the post in which I said the ACLU was been supportive of Christmas? Did you read those posts?