I don’t know what we are going to do, but it’s a problem that can’t be ignored just because it appears insoluble. Fortunately, acquriing the proper materials isn’t trivia; knowing the principles and the engineering isn’t enough. To me, it seems unacceptible to allow a terrorism sponsor to build nuclear weapons.
What do you think the US should do if we found out that nuclear bombs were being constructed in Iran for use by al Qaeda?
:eek:
I knew there was a reason why Our Glorious Leader crawled so far up GWB’s backside we could hardly see him.
It was so YOU guys couldn’t find him either!
Anyway, about this war … ummm… I think we’ll just be sitting this one out, if you guys don’t mind.
At least, I haven’t caught any of the whiff of jingoism in the press that would indicate we’re being pushed that way. We’ve been a little busy with changing irrelevant figureheads and other important stuff like that.
Would the US really go to war here if nobody else was with them on it? Even Blair?
Oh, and by “here” obviously I mean Iran. Not Oz. First line of that post notwithstanding…
And who do you suggest we trust? If GeeDubya stands there and says the same crap he said last time, why in the name of God should I believe a word he says?
“OK, last time I was sort of fibbing. Really, just a matter of emphasis. But this time for real, honest. No kidding.”
Would you? Honest, december. Knowing what we know now, would you believe him?
So what else is new?
It’s von Clausewitz, by the way.
And you will click on that link.
manhattan: But if the Iranian government actually allowed the Al Qaeda in it’s custody to plan terrorist attacks, they’re done. Simple.
Simple and stupid (not you, manny, the policy). The point of going after governments that harbor terrorists is to reduce terrorism. That means that if you overthrow a government (assuming for the moment that your desire to reduce terrorism gives you the right to do so, which I think is very questionable), you need to make sure that the succeeding one (and whatever interregnum there is in the meantime, before you get the next gov’t up and running) is less conducive to terrorist activity than the one you replaced.
Going into Iran would probably have the exact opposite effect: it would replace much of the goodwill that pro-democracy, anti-theocracy Iranians now have for Americans with a chorus of “see, we told you so” from the conservative theocratic clerics. A society with painful memories of previous US meddling with its government, madder than hornets at what it will view as a pure US power grab—what more could a terrorist ask for?
What’s the plan for replacing the current Iranian government? We sure didn’t seem to have much of one in Iraq. What’s the plan for making sure that wartime and postwar instability doesn’t facilitate terrorist preparations? We didn’t even keep Iraqi looters out of Iraq’s nuclear facilities! This Administration may be able to easily invade and conquer smaller poorer countries, but they’ve inspired absolutely zero confidence so far in their ability actually to make the world a safer and freer place by doing so.
december: What do you think the US should do if we found out that nuclear bombs were being constructed in Iran for use by al Qaeda?
Major UN inspection coalition again, and this time we should actually let the inspectors do their job (of course, we could not afford to do that last time, because it would have turned out that we had no excuse to invade).
Believe me, if we actually knew and could prove that Iran was building nukes to deliver to terrorists, we’d have the rest of the UN with us, prepared to lean very very strongly on the Iranians—and yes, send in an invasion coalition (with a strong Muslim-country component) if all else failed. No-fucking-body wants al-Qaeda to have nuclear bombs.
Notice, however, that I mentioned “knowledge” and “proof” as requisites. No more of this “well, we’re very sure they’ve got bad weapons and lots of terrorist connections but we refuse to give you the details and anyway we’re tired of waiting for you so we think we’ll just invade them ourselves” bullshit.
Actually, I find the shifts in rhetoric to be fascinating. First, it was “Saddam has WMDs.” When they didn’t turn up, people started talking about “It’s a good thing he stopped Saddam before he got WMDs.” (Which is, quite frankly, bizarre logic. Have none of you people seen “Minority Report”?)
Now, we’ve moved into WOTIW (Wonders of the Invisible World) territory. Bush knows that he can’t be honest, because “We need to grab ahold of Iraq’s oil” or “I want to invade Iran because I can’t function sexually unless I’m killing people” won’t fly with voters. But now he knows that dishonest arguments won’t work if they mean that he has to turn up evidence that might not be there in the end.
So what to do? Invoke the WOTIW. Iran is harboring terrorists. What’s that? The terrorists are in custody, and Iran wants to talk to us about what to do with them? Well, er… Sure, it looks like Iran is holding them in custody, but secretly they’re just keeping them cozy and serving them hot chocolate while they give orders to Al-Qaeda sleepers! And their offer to cooperate with us? It’s a big sham, like when Saddam offered to let the inspectors in even though he had WMD’s, because it was all a big trick and, er… Well, the point is, we’ve got to invade Iran, for reasons which, by their nature, are almost impossible to back up with solid evidence, which makes it all the more urgent to move now, while there’s still time! Even if we invade and find documents proving that the terrorists were really in custody, that just proves how devious Iran was being all along!
Hurry- someone we don’t like might actually get the same kinds of weapons we have!
(Personally, I think the U.S. should unilaterally scap all strategic nuclear weapons, as such weapons are terrorist weapons of indiscriminate slaughter, with no legitimate use. Then we should arm-twist Britain, France, etc. into following our lead. Then we will have the moral legitimacy to tell Iran and Iraq what kinds of terrorist weapons they can have.)
$500. Are you taking the bet?
Under Jackmanniis power…must click link…no, no must resist…thinks the spelling of Clausewitz is a big hairy ass deal…my precious…gives a shit about spelling, but not about war…what a schiesskopf…my precious…
Preach it brother! And let’s hope more listen this time.
Does anyone here think the neocons really care what anybody thinks? Let me see a show of hands.
What they want is a world governed by the US period. Sort of like the Soviet Union wanted to govern the world. But they had the US to go through. The neocons have no one to go through. Their will or be damned.
Well, there’s still us. We aint much, but we’re all we got. But I’ve seen some people here who I never thought to see speaking out against the madness. They’re kinda on the edge of the crowd, with a stance of body language like “I’m not really with these people. I agree with these people, but I don’t have, like, food stamps or anything.”
Are these the back-ordered nuclear bombs that al Qaeda ordered from Saddam Hussien, December ? or more ineptly forged evidence or a 10 year old master’s thesis?
So Shrub sends Colin Powell to the UN again with a purchase order for 1 nukular bomb, signed by Osama bin Laden. "See it is right here in plain English O-s-a-m-a b-i-n L-a-d-e-n
And the saddest part about it,
Fool me once,
Shame on me
Fool me twice.
Shame on me, again
Are these the back-ordered nuclear bombs that al Qaeda ordered from Saddam Hussien, December ? or more ineptly forged evidence or a 10 year old master’s thesis?
So Shrub sends Colin Powell to the UN again with a purchase order for 1 nukular bomb, signed by Osama bin Laden. "See it is right here in plain English O-s-a-m-a b-i-n L-a-d-e-n
And the saddest part about it,
Fool me once,
Shame on me
Fool me twice.
Shame on me, again
Actually, it’s scheisskopf (remember your Catch-22?).
But congratulations - it’s not everyone who can be illiterate in multiple languages. 
By the way, I hope elucidator is taking time out from drooling on his keyboard to petition his Democratic* representatives to acquire some spine when it comes to resisting Bush’s military adventures.
*or DFL, or Farm-Labor, or whatever the proto-Progressives up there in Minnesota are calling themselves these days.
gobear, if you care to provide the conditions of the bet and a SDMB moderator is willing to hold the money, I’m in for $1000.
SERIOUSLY.
Call me a skeptic, but I’d like to see some evidence supporting the LAST war before I would support another one.
Honestly, some people surely are credulous fools. How could anyone not see what a gigantic sham this all is? All these nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, anthrax, terrorist connections - but no EVIDENCE.
Because I don’t see anything to get particularly mad about. You didn’t see this coming, what with the Axis of Evil and all? As the President already stated on September 13, 2001, anyone harboring terrorists ain’t gonna last. Supposedly, the co-ordinated attacks in Saudi were directed from Iran. Ergo, they are history. Simple really.
Prediction: regime change in Iran within 6 months.
Message: stop fucking with the United States.
As much as you hate Our President, don’t ya have to give 'im points for gumption? 
I looked at a map when Dubya started making noises about Iraq, and it was reasonably obvious that Iran was next. Like someone posted earlier, the troops in Iraq go right, while the troops in Afghanistan go left.
And don’t think the Iranians don’t know it. They’re not giving up that nuclear reactor, ever. It’s called “survival instinct”, I believe.
That would be Lewtenant Scheisskopf. Bet I can spell gooder than you!
Nor would everyone be smugly pendantic enough to think it matters. Bet you knock 'em dead at Mensa meetings.
Well, we had one with a real set of stones. President Rove spent a gazillion bucks to sink him, then he died. Then we got this guy so loathesome not even Garrison Keillor can stand him.
(Rest, Paul. We won’t. We promise.)
I’m really surprised at the surprise here.
GWB said repeatedly in the months after 9/11 that:
And yet we have people aghast that Iraq wasn’t the end of the whole thing.
None of this bears on the wisdom or folly of the plan in general; one can well think it’s the continuation of madness, or an unneeded acceleration or diversion from an otherwise good plan. But anyone who is amazed that this would be a possibility has simply not been listening.