Warning: No Evil in The Pit!

DJ

An excellent post — well reasoned and thought out, informative, and without excessive emotional baggage.

I thought you might want to know that the reason I bang so hard on empiricism here at SDMB is the same reason that I bang so hard on liberalism. There is a tacit assumption, because of the sheer number of materialists here, that an empirical epistemology is somehow superior to any other. Few necessarily say this, but there are so many who rely upon it to the exclusion of all else that it needs to be beaten down before it wraps itself around the whole place like Kudzu.

Empricism has its place, and there isn’t any mystery to it. For whatever that may be falsified, there is no more reliable and appropriate method of gaining knowledge than empiricism. If a statement is made that has the potential to be proven false, then the appropriate way to proceed is to test it scientifically.

But here is a critical point that so often gets lost among materialists who are overly giddy about empiricism — not everything that tests as not false is true, and not everything that tests as false is not true. (Wait! Bear with me!) Yes, in first-order logic and its derivatives we have a contradiction when we say A and Not A, but that’s not what I’m talking about here. I’m not saying that something can be both true and false at the same time; rather, I’m saying that something can be true upon some condition or circumstance and false upon some other.

Psychoanalytical theories are unscientific for precisely the reason mentioned in your Skeptics Dictionary — they are not capable of being formulated into falsifiable hypotheses. These are exactly the theories that Popper himself dealt with as he formulated the modern scientific method and became the first to describe the distinction between science and pseudo-science. Does this make them not true? No. It merely makes them not necessarily false, because the only thing science (empiricism) can tell us is whether a particular hypothesis is false. All this means is that psychoanalytical theories are not of interest to science. Nothing more. Testing them requires some other epistemology.

Keep in mind that empiricism tests only synthetic knowledge; that is, knowledge that is synthesized from experience and observation. There are many true statements that science cannot test: 2 + 2 = 4, for example. Science cannot test it because it requires a presumption that is not testable, namely the presumption of induction. Note that to prove 2 + 2 = 4 requires an entirely different epistemology (logic), and the acceptance without proof that for every n, there exists a successor n + 1. The sort of knowledge that science cannot test is analytic (as opposed to synthetic).

To expect that science and technology unilaterally will one day discover every truth is naive. First of all, science itself relies on other epistemologies so routinely that it is often forgotten that it does so. It relies on logic to formulate a proper hypothesis for testing. It relies on revelation to formulate ideas to state hypotheses about. It relies on imagination to tie together result sets from unrelated experiments. It relies on statistics to collate result sets into meaningful interpretations. And it relies on subjective experience to help formulate the best experiment.

Second, it is a mistake to extrapolate a scientific finding of not-false into a logical finding of true. For example, you can test Newtonian laws of force and momentum to a fare-thee-well and satisfy yourself that they are not false. But if you then presume that they are true, you will be lost and disillusioned when you attempt to apply their principles to objects travelling at or near the speed of light or to objects at subatomic scales. It isn’t that Einstein proved Newton wrong, but rather that he proved him incomplete. Newtonian “truths” did not account for certain other contexts.

Lastly, science is based upon a principle that itself cannot be tested scientifically. Just as no hypothesis may be formed to test the veracity of psychoanalysis, so no hypothesis may be formed to test the veracity of falsifiablity. If you accept falsifiablity as a right principle, then you do so as a conscious choice and without proof.

I really don’t mean to bash empiricism, but let’s just be careful to prioritize it properly. It has a place, but it does not have every place. It is useful for many things, but it is not useful for everything. It can reveal what is false in a given circumstance, but it can never reveal what is true under any circumstance.

Once again, thanks for your post. SDMB is richer for it.

This cracked me up. I pulled out my copy of “The Artist’s Way” last night and I misrepresented what she wrote. I mixed up the advice my therapist had given me with her suggestion. The Morning Pages do not have to be negative. They are supposed to be stream of conciousness - the topics being whatever comes to your head. She does mention that often the morning pages will be filled with negativity (again, it’s not a requirement) and warns not to be shocked by how ugly your thoughts may be, but rather to let it be a cathartic tool. I must admit, even though the pages don’t have to be negative, I usually don’t even think (nevermind say) anything positive for the first 45 minutes that I am up. I am one grumpy sonofabitch when I get up in the morning. Now, if I am allowed to sleep till dark, it’s all sunshine and roses when I rise . . .

DaLovin’ Dj

I just realized that one of the links in my gigantic post didn’t lead to the correct place. In section 5, the link to the essay which discusses ways in which we may be able to measure conciousness scientifically should point here. It really is an interesting read so ya’ll should take a gander. Sorry for the messed up link.

Lib, thanks for the compliment. I’m mulling over your post a bit before responding further . . .

DaLovin’ Dj

Jeez. So, by warning people away from using the Pit as a cathatic tool by venting their ugliest, I am depriving others of the cathartic mechanism of bashing posters for having said ugly things?

I think I need a puching bag . . .

DaLovin’ Dj

I’ll buy you one for your post upthread… where do I get them from? Is it one of those fancy, high-fashion Japanese things?

missed the edit window.

Sorry gang, I got that into the discussion, it felt like it was happening now, and I couldn’t resist pouncing on Dalovin’s slight typo after such a wonderful, almost flawless earlier post. Go on, call me what you like, I’ll probably deserve it. Still, if I’m gonna resurrect a zombie thread, I couldn’t have picked a much better one.:slight_smile:

Well, trollboy is back. ::shrugs:: Gotta take the bad with the good.

You’re right. There’s no forum here for primal scream therapy. Because…ick. If you want to unload your ugliest, nasty secret thoughts, get a blog. Or hell, just write an old fashioned diary where other people won’t even see it.

Why the hell would anybody want to read nasty rants but not be able to respond? Especially on, you know, a message board? Other people? Not just jacking off in private?

Nah, this is pointless, given your lengthy track record of using this board as a masturbatory aid. Whatever your ego demands, lovindj. We’re just here as backdrop for you, you, wonderful you.

This is a viewpoint that I just can’t get behind, at all. The whole point of a “moral high ground” is that it’s where you’re supposed to be: here, in GQ, at the supermarket, whatever. That’s what “moral high ground” means: it’s where you are when you’re doing what’s right, as vague and nebulous as that is. There’s no context that makes expressing, say, murderous impulses better just because it’s in a certain place or in a certain forum.

Also, addressing the OP for a minute: I admit to being a little bit baffled. You seem to think that the ideal state of affairs would have been for you to spit out the occasional bile here and then get shielded from any negative responses coming the other way. I can’t imagine why you would have ever expected your “shadow side” as you put it to encounter nothing but sweetness and light in return. Ugly gets as ugly gives, I would think.

For myself, I’m going to continue to reserve the right to call out stupid as I see fit. 'Cause I’ve come to realize that’s what a lot of these “shadow side” impulses are…stupid. The kind of bile that results in “I want to shoot/stab/rape that guy” is just self-destructive short-sighted stupidity, and I while I can sympathize with people who have taken shit from life’s great toilet, I don’t see why I should have to coddle stupid to do so.

The OP hasn’t posted since 2004.

Whew.

TV must have been as half asleep as I was. :slight_smile:

Huh! Completely missed the date. Brain fart moment for sure.

Well, at least the asshole isn’t back. That’s good news. Or non-news.

Damn, I hate mornings.

**ivan astikov **, don’t resurrect old threads.

Unfortunately I can’t close the thread right now, but I will once I can actually access the tools.

Admonition accepted, even though I did apologise upthread. It was an accident, not a deliberate resurrection.

ivan, you’re clearly aware that we ask people not to bump old threads, yet you did it anyway. For a stupid, unfunny typo joke no less. Official warning.

Yes, I am clearly aware, and just like TVeblen, I made a genuine mistake, and did not check the date. The thread was linked to in a live thread today, and I just went in and read through it. Granted the typo joke wasn’t very funny, but I’m not sure it warrants an official warning.

Giraffe, this is ivan we’re talking about here. You should know better than to not close this topic when you post to him (or regarding him) because you know that this troll is just going to keep responding. : p

Actually, if I could have PM’d him about this, I would have. It so happens that it’s not working at the moment, and I wanted to get this cleared up before I forgot about it. Now go and take your taunts elsewhere, you bottom feeder.

Ah, I didn’t realize it was linked in another thread. If you give me a link to the other thread, I’ll retract the warning.

If I knew how to search for recent posts that had referenced this thread ( there will be one made today.) , I’d be able to produce it in no time. If have to rely on my memory, I may as well take my warning. :slight_smile:

eta slight alteration.