Warning: No Evil in The Pit!

[dalovindj]

Lately, I notice alot of people getting reamed for posting rants about things that aren’t so polite to be feeling. When I first got here (to the SDMB) and saw the way it was broken down into forums, I was really excited. I thought to myself, they’ve allowed for every type of human expression and interest here. Most of the forums are pretty easy to understand. Religion and politics in GD, general chit-chat in MPSIMS, factual questions in GQ, Art & Entertainment in Cafe Society. It’s all covered. . .

Then the Pit. Now, my first thought about this forum was that it is a place where we can feel free to spew those nasty thoughts we all have from time to time. How cool, I thought, that they would allow a place for humans to embrace (and perhaps in the process purge) their shadow side. If I think to myself “Hell, I’d like to shoot this Ice Cream guy in the face for being a Mets fan!” then I can simply come in here and post it instead of actually loading up the .357 and going to ice (or should I say “cream”) his punk ass.

How cool, I thought, that they provide a place to vent these ugly feelings. How great to have a place where we can purge ourselves of negativity without worry. How wonderful to be able to accept that these emotions are (unfortunately) part of the human experience, and that they can have a place in a Pit somewhere instead of in the streets. When I was in therapy as a child (I had some pretty serious anger issues), one of the exercises a therapist recommended to me was to write down every negative thing I felt. Not to show him - not to show anybody (unless I wanted to). He suggested the act of writing out your ugliest thoughts and emotions could be a way of relieving yourself of their influence on your life/attitude. It was a pretty effective strategy for me. Instead of acting out on these thoughts, I wrote them down, which seemed to be at least as effective of a release valve as would be yelling at some poor schmoe to vent.

I thought the Pit was one big “negativity journal”. That is to say I thought it was a valve to help release these negative feelings. Well, I had the pit all wrong. This aint that place. This thread is a kind of warning to anyone who thinks it will be cool and fine to post an ugly thought here. Instead the Pit is actually a place for mild rants about not so evil feelings, unless of course you crave getting attacked, jumped on, mocked, scorned, and insulted, and possibly banned. Now, I’m not saying this is good or bad. It simply IS, so one must deal.
If you find yourself thinking REALLY ugly thoughts, and wanting to vent, perhaps a private online Journal would be a better option. I only bring this up, because I’ve seen a pattern happen so many times it’s starting to make me ill:

1. Angry doper posts thread revealing ugly emotions
2. Self righteous dopers declare Angry doper to be cruel and evil
3. Angry doper is outraged
4. Train wreck, high horses, and meltdowns round out the party

So, a word to the wise, don’t bash anything here unless you feel it would be acceptable to say the same in polite company. Despite the name of the forum, vitriol and ugliness are met with attacks and scorn, rather than understanding and empathy (note that neither would require agreement to be offered, but that doesn’t seem to matter).

This board, unfortunately, is not an all encompassing answer to the wide range of human experience (There STILL is no “Weapons & Pornography” forum). While a board which allowed for the whole of human expression (good and evil), while maintaining the intellectual level of the members this board (means usenet is out), would be mad cool, there would, as a result, be alot of issues brought up which the staff and The Reader would rather not deal with. Such is their right.

Of course, if you crave abuse and train wrecks, then step right up and spew your worst, but if you are looking for a place to vent your worst without judgement or chastisement, this is not that place. I personally feel that cruelty and ugliness are in us all, and it is good to have a way to deal with those emotions in a positive manner. I just want to point out that posting them in this forum just doesn’t seem to be that way.

Does this make any sense? Do I need to provide some examples?

DaLovin’ Dj

[Homebrew]

Getting called on your cruelty and ugliness is part of dealing with, and perhaps excising, those thoughts. I think getting your ass reamed over your inappropriate rantings is good and helps you focus on your own faults that need work.

[Otto]

Um, yeah, what Homebrew said. Feel free to vent whatever feelings you may have, but don’t expect that you’re going to get a free pass for it just because you’re in the Pit.

[Kamandi]

True, Homebrew, but I for one could stand to see a lot less sanctimonious bullshit in the Pit.

You can ream out an OP for for wanting to push that old lady down the subway stairs without sounding like you’re applying for sainthood.

[dalovindj]

I think getting your ass reamed over your inappropriate rantings is good and helps you focus on your own faults that need work.

I think that getting ones “ass reamed” tends to fuel frustration and negative feelings in alot of people, rather than calm and illuminate them. Constructive and polite criticism about how to deal with such feelings may help one to see where they need work, but what happens here more often is the cruel and bitter “ass reaming” - which many times blinds the poster with further rage and disgust. That’s what this forum is, and that’s fair enough, I suppose. My point is alot of people don’t seem to understand that the Pit is often not the most constructive place to deal with not-so-nice feelings.

I also don’t think there is a such thing as an inappropriate rant. There is just inappropriate placement. We can’t help what we feel, we can only try to control how we respond to those feelings. Bottling them up like they don’t exist is not a great idea (I’m a fan of Carl Jung - can you tell?), and neither is expressing them here.

In the book “The Artist’s Way”, Julia Cameron suggests that you write 3 pages every morning (Morning Pages). The morning pages should be all of the negative stuff you feel & think, and it should be allowed to flow out unappologetically and truthfully. This is similar to the exercise the therapist had me do. I think it is constructive. It would be cool to have a place where people could share such pages, rants, and thoughts without cruel chastisement (though Cameron suggests that no one but the writer read the pages). This forum is not such a place - and that is my point. Some people seem to think that it is, or can be, but it isn’t. I’m not saying the Pit sucks because that is not what it is, only that it is not a very good place to vent one’s truly ugliest feelings. If one is looking for intelligent discourse on why a certain position or philosophy may or may not be morally righteous, then a GD discussion is a good way. If one is just looking to vent ugliness without being attacked, look somewhere else. There is no where on this board that meets that description.

DaLovin’ Dj

[Beagle]

I’ve noticed that threads which tend to derail go something like this. Let me illustrate with a hypothetical. First, I’ll show the approach least likely to wreck. Next, I’ll show the same rant with the (UN)necessary ingredients to piss a giant segment of virtual community off.

1. Bitch cut me off in traffic today. (unlikely to offend too much)

2. A fat, ugly, Puerto Rican(or whatever) bitch cut me off in traffic today. ([sub]*Slurs used for demonstration purposes only. Do not try this at home. Professional poster on closed course. Your mileage may vary. Some restrictions may apply. Not legal in CA or LA. Limited warranty, see insert for details. Void where prohibited. Hot liquids can burn you. Please use caution. Riders under 44" prohibited. Precaucion, Piso Mojado! *[/sub])

One might view the ‘magic’ words as being merely descriptive. Or it might appear sizeist, appearanc…ah…ist, and last–but certainly not least–either racist, xenophobic, anti-immigrant, whatever.

[dalovindj]

Very true, Beagle. And a well written disclaimer I might add. This place just does not tolerate expressing such thoughts even if you are thinking them. I actually think that someone can use creative slurs without intending to demean a whole race or group of people. I feel that thinking and feeling something like your example number 2 is possible even for an individual who has no general problem with fat, ugly, or Puerto Rican people. It can be entirely theraputic to use those insulting terms, you just have to do it in the right place. The way this “Pit” is set up, a common misconception seems to be that one can comfortably spew their worst bile (and we ALL think awful things sometimes) because it is the right forum. There is no right forum for such, and every post will be screened by the “Offenderati” (for lack of a better term) and attacked if found in violation. Fine and good, as long as folks understand. I just get the feeling that many people look at the word “Pit” and conclude some slack will (or should) be given for rudeness and offensive language as long as they put those thoughts here and not in some other forum (a conclusion I made in my earliest days here). This is a poor conclusion because, for better or worse, a large chunk of Pit denizens jump at the chance to attack people who use words they don’t like. If one doesn’t care that this will be the response, cool. It’s just that so many folks seem shocked when they get jumped all over for vicious venting, and they should realize it’s just par for the course around here.

DaLovin’ Dj

[rjung]

You can be a racist, homophobic, bigoted, close-minded, flamin’ asshole in the BBQ Pit.

Just don’t whine when the folks you slammed flame back.

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by dalovindj *
I also don’t think there is a such thing as an inappropriate rant. There is just inappropriate placement. We can’t help what we feel, we can only try to control how we respond to those feelings. Bottling them up like they don’t exist is not a great idea (I’m a fan of Carl Jung - can you tell?), and neither is expressing them here.

In the book “The Artist’s Way”, Julia Cameron suggests that you write 3 pages every morning (Morning Pages). The morning pages should be all of the negative stuff you feel & think, and it should be allowed to flow out unappologetically and truthfully. This is similar to the exercise the therapist had me do. I think it is constructive.

The thing is that these are theories that - while widely accepted - have little or no empirical evidence to back them up, and have been increasingly debunked in controlled studies. See for example: Catharsis, Aggression, and Persuasive Influence: Self-Fulfilling or Self-Defeating Prophecies? from the (APA’s) Journal of Personality and Social Psychology:

Popular belief in the catharsis theory remains strong despite the theory’s dismal record in research findings. According to the catharsis hypothesis, acting aggressively or even viewing aggression is an effective way to reduce anger and aggressive feelings. One likely reason for the continued widespread belief in catharsis is that the mass media continue to endorse the view that expressing anger or aggressive feelings is healthy, constructive, and relaxing, whereas restraining oneself creates internal tension that is unhealthy and bound to lead to an eventual blowup.

In general, empirical findings have been inconsistent with the catharsis hypothesis (see reviews by Geen & Quanty, 1977, and Warren & Kurlychek, 1981). Tavris (1988) concluded that “it is time to put a bullet, once and for all, through heart of the catharsis hypothesis. The belief that observing violence (or ‘ventilating it’) gets rid of hostilities has virtually never been supported by research” (p. 194). Because activities considered to be cathartic also are aggressive, they could lead to the activation of other aggressive thoughts, emotions, and behavioral tendencies, which in turn could lead to greater anger and aggression (Berkowitz, 1984; Tice & Baumeister, 1993).

Catharsis in the Popular Press

False popular belief that there is scientific justification for the catharsis hypothesis makes the hypothesis durable and resistant to change. Unfortunately, few laypeople are likely to consult scientific journal articles to find out if there is empirical evidence to support catharsis. Instead, they consult the popular press, which often reports that catharsis is valid. The pervasiveness of false beliefs about catharsis makes them potentially harmful. People expect that performing cathartic activities will reduce their anger and aggression, when cathartic activities are actually more likely to have the opposite effect (Geen & Quanty, 1977; Warren & Kurlychek, 1981).

Concluding Remarks

Our findings suggest that media messages advocating catharsis may be worse than useless. They encourage people to vent their anger through aggressive action, and perhaps they even foster the displacement of aggression toward new, innocent third parties. In our research, people who received procatharsis messages first chose to vent their anger by hitting a punching bag, but then they went on to show elevated aggression toward the person at whom they were angry. They even showed increased aggression toward an innocent third person. Pop writers may think they are offering helpful, sage advice on affect regulation, but the effect of advocating catharsis may be to cause a general increase in aggressive behavior. Perhaps media endorsement of cathartic release should come to be regarded as a potential danger to public health, peace, and social harmony.

[Miller]

Couple of things:

First, the boards aren’t your (or anyone’s) private thearpy session. It is, indeed, polite company, although I’m badly abusing the meaning of the word “polite.” So watch what you say if you aren’t prepared to back it up.

Second, not “everyone” has ugly thoughts. I have to do almost no self-editing on the boards. I say what I feel, and while I’ve been in no small amount of angry arguments, no one has yet seen fit to Pit me or call me a bigot. Heck, I’ve been a regular here for three years now, and I just got accused of trolling for the first time a few days ago. So don’t say these feelings are part of the “human experience,” because I’m human, and I haven’t experienced them.

Lastly, how can we, as readers, tell who is a bigoted, anti-social sack of shit, and who’s just acting like one to “vent”? And why should the burden of telling one from the other be on us, and not on the person posting their bigoted, anti-social ravings?

[dalovindj]

You can be a racist, homophobic, bigoted, close-minded, flamin’ asshole in the BBQ Pit.

You can also be a kind, non-racist, non-bigot who occaisionally feels and thinks things that are pretty ugly. As a matter of fact, it is possible to have an emotion that you realize intellectually is cruel, primititve and unfair. No one can stop their own thoughts. Having these feelings does not make you evil. Acting on them is a different story.

To be honest, sometimes on my way to work, I fantasise about killing 30 or so people who don’t understand how to ride a train. I imagine smacking stupid people around on a daily basis. When someone annoys me, I mentally insult the shit out of them thinking up the things that would offend them them the most. Now, I don’t act on these urges, but I am aware of them. I have friends and a private journal. Both of these places, I can feel free to rant and spew whatever negativity I may be feeling. It is good to have an outlet for these thoughts and sentiments (as ugly as they may be). Bottling them up and ignoring them can just make things worse.

There are many hidden and undeveloped parts in all of us and in attempting to keep our self-image intact, we will completely deny their existence. We do this because we want to be accepted by our society, by our families and our peers. Our baser qualities — our hypocritical behavior, our excessive greed, our ruthlessness, our ability to be manipulative — go straight into the unconscious. But that doesn’t mean they are not active in our life, they just live in the unconscious (unsupervised), and periodically they burst forth into our awareness and propel us into situations that we would much rather avoid.

Jung suggested that in suppressing our shadow side we give it the power to act out in ways we hadn’t planned. But, if we embrace and vent this negative side (which we all posess to varying degrees) we have a better chance of controlling where and when it manifests itself. It is good to have a vent for these parts of ourselves.

My overall point is that the Pit is a TERRIBLE place to engage in this venting. It will result in being attacked and scorned. I’m not saying that the Pit should change. It is what it is, and I like it alot. Alot of people seem quick to use it as a place to vent whatever ugliness they are feeling, and that is a bad idea. I would love to see a balls out “Go ahead and rant about ANYTHING Pit” where criticism is limited to form and style, rather than dominated by high-horsed judgement (as Kamandi points out) and accusations of bigotry . But I’m not the boss and the Pit isn’t that type of place. I highly recommend finding an outlet for the shadow side in us all, but I must warn that this is a terrible place to do it. As a disclaimer I will say that there is nothing wrong with the Pit not being that type of place, but it is easy to mistake it for just that anyway.

“Whatever one does not live, lives against one.” ~ Carl Jung

DaLovin’ Dj

[Ms.Fisk]

Most of the flaming done to ranters I’ve seen here actually involves fighting ignorance–whether it be of the bigoted variety or what have you.

[Miller]

Originally posted by dalovindj
To be honest, sometimes on my way to work, I fantasise about killing 30 or so people who don’t understand how to ride a train. I imagine smacking stupid people around on a daily basis. When someone annoys me, I mentally insult the shit out of them thinking up the things that would offend them them the most.

You know, da (can I call you da?) I generally like you pretty well, but reading this… all I can say is, one of us is laboring under some severe misconceptions about what counts as “normal human thoughts.” For all our sakes, I hope it’s you.

[Liberal]

DJ

To be honest, sometimes on my way to work, I fantasise about killing 30 or so people who don’t understand how to ride a train. I imagine smacking stupid people around on a daily basis. When someone annoys me, I mentally insult the shit out of them thinking up the things that would offend them them the most. Now, I don’t act on these urges, but I am aware of them. I have friends and a private journal. Both of these places, I can feel free to rant and spew whatever negativity I may be feeling. It is good to have an outlet for these thoughts and sentiments (as ugly as they may be). Bottling them up and ignoring them can just make things worse.

What is their source?

[dalovindj]

Miller:

First, the boards aren’t your (or anyone’s) private thearpy session. It is, indeed, polite company, although I’m badly abusing the meaning of the word “polite.”

So we agree here.

Second, not “everyone” has ugly thoughts. . . So don’t say these feelings are part of the “human experience,” because I’m human, and I haven’t experienced them.

Well, if you are a human who has never had a cruel, aggressive, or unenlightened thought - I will say congratulations. I must admit I don’t believe it for a minute, but more power to you if your mind is a perfect zen balance of peace and understanding at all times.

Lastly, how can we, as readers, tell who is a bigoted, anti-social sack of shit, and who’s just acting like one to “vent”?

You can’t.

And why should the burden of telling one from the other be on us, and not on the person posting their bigoted, anti-social ravings?

Who said it was or should be? The only way this place would work as a proper vent for such feelings would be if the posters (and staff) decided to let it be. I’m not bitching the people who strike out at such posters, I’m trying to advise such posters that this place is not the right room for freedom of shadow thoughts. So, we are in agreement on this one as well.

IzzyR, you make some interesting points. I’d like to do a little more reading before I address them. One of my first questions is whether these studies distinguish between physical catharsis (punching bag stuff) and written words (which is mostly what I am speaking about here).

DaLovin’ Dj

[Francesca]

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly and I think it’s one of the reasons so many of us now have Livejournals - places where we can expunge those ugly thoughts without being jumped on for simply having them. The pit, despite being a forum for venting, is still polite company, and it sometimes feels like there are many posters who read OPs looking for something to take offense at/argue with.

Let’s face it - we’re humans. We have ugly thoughts. Sometimes we think it would be great to smack the office bitch in the mouth. We wouldn’t act on it, but it’s okay to think these things sometimes. Thoughts don’t hurt people, it’s only when we act on them that we do damage. And I think it’s okay to get those thoughts out there sometimes - sometimes it’s even helpful when someone can say “Yeah, I get ugly thoughts like that too sometimes.” Not that this means condoning action, it’s simply acknowledging that we all have a darker side sometimes.

[Bad_News_Baboon]

*Originally posted by dalovindj *
**If I think to myself “Hell, I’d like to shoot this Ice Cream guy in the face for being a Mets fan!” then I can simply come in here and post it instead of actually loading up the .357 and going to ice (or should I say “cream”) his punk ass.
**

First off, I am going to state that I realize you are using hyperbole for effect, but the fact is, it seems that a lot of people really do feel this way.

“If I don’t post, I’ll just go postal and shoot someone or something!”.

No, that is not always the case. Sometimes, one should just deal, you know?

You have a lot of valid points, DJ. I don’t, in general, have issues with the pit and the posts here. What does drive me up the wall is when you get posters that get addicted to the fame (cause, c’mon admit it, a pit thread will probably get 3 times the views a thread in MPSIMS).

Then what happens is that the poster will then start pitting every single fucking problem in their life:

“I have a hangnail!”
“My asshole neighbor didn’t wave”

or, the same problem over and over and over again.

I really think that a good portions of the threads in the Pit could easily be moved to MPSIMS, minus the swear words obviously. Even better would be a move to a live journal.

My two cents, is all.

[Mtgman]

In all fairness the forum is called “The Pit” not “The Couch”. The denizens here are under no obligation to provide therapudic services to each other or any other member of the SDMB. I agree that flaming is not constructive and it would be a wonderful thing if people would knock off the tearing down of various posters and help them overcome their “dark side” as it were. OTOH I don’t think it is fair to ask them to. If there is a need for a “Comfy Psychiatrists Couch” forum, then we can create one.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Kamandi]

*Originally posted by Miller *
**You know, da (can I call you da?) I generally like you pretty well, but reading this… all I can say is, one of us is laboring under some severe misconceptions about what counts as “normal human thoughts.” For all our sakes, I hope it’s you. **

I knew somebody would provide an example of what I was talking about eventually.

Thanks, Miller.

[Kamandi]

On second thought, I regret my last posting. This thread has turned into a good discussion and I just pissed on it. Sorry, DJ and Miller. My remark was uncalled-for.

Please return to your regularly scheduled rant.