There are all these reports that J. Michael Straczynski claims that he sent the story idea for Babylon 5 to Paramount years before they decided to do Deep Space Nine. People also point out the similarities in the scenarios. So was it a ripoff? If so, why hasn’t Straczynski sued Paramount? Art Buchwald won in his suit against a major studio. What is the evidence on either side?
The similiarities may very well be coincidental. Even if JMS submitted a proposal to Paramount years before they might have come up with the DS9 concept entirely on their own. The similiarities between the two shows seem pretty superficial but in some cases a little two similiar.
It did seem odd sometimes. Babylon 5 gets the Whitestar and then DS9 gets the Defiant. Babylon 5 has a multiple storylines spanning seaons and then DS9 does the same thing.
Marc
I think originally they were separate ideas, but when B5 hit its high point (somewhere around the third season) and started into major arc storylines, DS9 tried the same tricks with their stories, to the extent that its universe would allow.
In other words, I think DS9 in later years was “inspired” by Straczynski’s success. It was a completely different show by then.
Straczynski used to write a column (he might still do, I don’t know) for Writer’s Digest and when B5 went into production he wrote a column describing his trials and tribulations of getting the series going. I don’t have the article handy, but one of the things I remember it saying was that when he pitched the idea to Paramount they told him, “We don’t think we could support two science fiction shows at the same time.” Meaning, that they were afraid B5 would steal viewership from ST:TNG. This column appeared, IIRC before Paramount announced DS9, and given the usual magazine lag time, was probably written several months before it was published. That doesn’t mean that DS9 was a rip-off of B5, but it sure looks that way. (BTW, I was never able to get into B5, so I’m not some gushing fan-boy trying to defend his favorite program.)
In any case, Straczynski might not be able to sue the studio. One of the standard things studios require is a blanket waver that says if you come to them with an idea and they don’t use it, but do come out with something similar, you can’t sue them. Even if Straczynski could sue, he might not want to. Were he to sue and win, it could make it difficult for him to find work again in Hollywood, and that’s no doubt what he wants to do. Buchwald, OTOH, has probably made enough money off his newspaper columns that he doesn’t care if Hollywood takes one his ideas for a movie again or not.
What?! I’d have to see one of these contracts. There has to be something more to it than that, like the submitter is getting paid or something. Otherwise I can’t see how it would be legally enforceable.
Someone more knowledgeable will have to provide a copy of the waiver. (Paging Eve, Cervaise, and any other Doper who’s worked in the film industry…) I’ve never seen one, but I know that if you submit a script for the Star Trek TV shows you’ve got sign one before they’ll even consent to look at your script. As for it being legally enforceable, I don’t know, but Hollywood is rumored to be a town where you play ball their way or you don’t play at all. So even if you took them to court over the waiver and won, its entirely likely that you could get black listed for it. Sally Struthers sued the producers of All in the Family over an episode where she had to handle a gun (which is hysterical since she seemed happy to be waving one around in The Getaway with Steve McQueen) and found herself quickly written out of the show.
The thing to remembers it that those pitches are a double edged sword. Let’s say someone walks in and pitches something that is almost exactly like something you already have in development. All of a sudden they’ve got a legal problem where the pitcher could sue the company for “stealing” their idea. This is why any time you submit a story idea or script unsolicitted to a television show it goes straight into the dumpster.
In the case of B5, I think that it’s an independant thing though close enough to cause arguments for years. Let’s face it, Paramount was looking to develop the Star Trek franchise further, they already had the movies going, the Next Generation series was starting to wind down, and they wanted something else. They already had one show with a space ship around the universe, changing it up to a space station is a logical move. Even if they were scared that starting up B5 would have sucked viewers from Star Trek the execs certainly wouldn’t think that another Trek show would. And at the beginning point both shows were about as different as you could get (JMS already had his long term plot planned out as evident from his early, early internet posts while DS9 started with the usual Trek meandering).
When an unknown writer (like me) sends a script to Star Trek (and by the way, as far as I know the various STs are the ONLY shows that accept such scripts - a policy set up by ST creator Gene Roddenberry in the 60s, if I recall) it has to be accompanied by a waiver. On 'tother hand I would be stupefied if Paramount asked an established pro like JMS to sign such a form, and totally astonished if he would do so. Admittedly, I’m speaking from hunch here, not experience.
If I remember correctly Harlan Ellison successfully sued a studio for borrowing an idea. Ed McBain, the mystery writer, has complained often that Hill Street Blues was a ripoff of his 87th Precinct novels (in fact characters in the books complained that the show was based on their lives!). As a fan of both, I didn’t see it, myself. Neither of them make a lot of their money from Hollywood.
And speaking of Gene Roddenberry, according to The Making of Star Trek, when he was trying to sell the show he spent two hours explaining to CBS executives how a science fiction show could be done on budget. Then they thanked him and said they were going with a show they liked better (Lost in Space, God help them). So Roddenberry had just spent an afternoon giving the opposition a free lesson in how to proceed.
But if you want to keep working in Hollywood, I suppose you just grin and bear it.
Fifteen Iguana
Ellison sued no one less than James Cameron. Because of that he gets a “Based on” credit in the original Terminator. Ellison did make an awful lot of money on Hollywood, though, as a script writer (he was even head of the screenwriter’s guild in the seventies).
The thing that with B5 vs DS9 is that JMS did pitch to Paramount got rejected etc.
Then the two series are remarkably similar. The thing to remember with B5 is that it was ALWAYS from the very Beginning designed to have a story arc. It was designed for a 5 year run. No more, no less. Even if the series was a smash success it would have ended after 5 years. The arc was already written.
DS9 on the other hand, started out as nothing more than ST:TNG on a space station. There was zero continuity, they had amusing little adventures each episode and then it was all forgotten by the next one. Suddenly, B5 and its story arc is showing success, DS9 is flagging so they turn around and turn it into a story arc as well. And jesus christ, they practically “co-opted” the B5 story arc too. (Powerful alien species from the outside of the galaxy out for galactic domination/destruction. Big war, neat ships then the whole conspiracy in the local government… the enemy has infiltrated us! The Changelings and Section 31 versus the Shadows, Bureau 13, the Nightwatch etc etc.)
The similarties are endless.
Wishful think it seems. While many of the B5 themes do show up on DS9, most of those themse in fact had shown up in other films and books prior to B5. Does that mean Straczynski stole them? Maybe. However, inspiration comes from many places.
I am sure there are plenty of Sci-Fi and Amine authors which found their ideas showing up on B5 as well. Part of it is that there is only so many ways to skin the cat.
Copyright law protection the expression, not the idea itself.
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html#wwp
Specifically Scenes a Faire are not protected. Here is a great example:
http://www.benedict.com/visual/raiders/raiders.asp
The case: Zambito v. Paramount Pictures Corp., 613 F. Supp. 1107, 1112 (E.D.N.Y.), aff’d, 788 F.2d (2nd Cir. 1985)
I have to go with Eidolon909 on this one.
I noticed exactly the same thing at the time. I’ve always figured the writers of DS9 saw B5 thought “Hey look what their doing. Lets do that”. I wouldn’t call it outright plaigarism but the show made a major change in direction to follow in B5’s lead.Which i thought was a good thing because let’s face it the first 2 seasons of DS9 were rubbish.
I was a huge fan of B5, and only watched DS9 once in a blue moon.
Were there similarities? Sure- and some of them were undoubtedly intentional. Show biz is filled with copycats, and if something succeeds on one show, it’s inevitable that other shows will try to do the same thing.
But was DS9 a “rip-off” of B5? No more than B5 itelf was a rip-off of the earlier “Star Trek” series and its movies/spinoffs.
B5 was OBVIOUSLY inspired by “Star Trek,” and I’m sure Straczynsi would admit that in a heartbeat- but he gave B5 enough original touches, themes, and storylines that it wouldn’t be fair to call it a rip-off. In the same way, I have no doubt that Rick Berman & Co. watched B5 and were influenced by it… but they did enough things differently that “riip-off” seems like an unfairly harsh charge.
This has always seemed to me the most defensible charge–that DS9 “copied” the notion of a continuing storyline from B5. But even that similarity might be overstated. After all, that sort of story-arc structure was becoming more and more common on TV at that time. Twin Peaks had done it a few years before, and I think The X-Files had introduced their so-called “mythology” episodes by then. The idea of doing a continuing plotline rather than a series of stand alone episodes was very much in the air at the time.
As for the similarities in DS9’s plot to Babylon 5–the war, etc. There were similarities, certainly, but just as many differences. The Dominion’s goals, for example, were quite different from the Shadows’. And they were beaten in a different way, as well. And war stories are one of the oldest narrative forms in history. I’d call it partly coincidence, partly “creative borrowing.”
As astorian rightly points out, B5 itself borrowed from other sources. Star Trek has been mentioned; I’ll add another. To me, the major plotline of Babylon 5 has always seemed to owe more than a little to Tolkien. A great evil, barely defeated but not destroyed many years ago, beginning to stir again. The necessity to form alliances between several different races, many of whom don’t entirely trust one another. A mysterious group known as “Rangers.” The use of “Shadow” in reference to the enemy. Not to mention the similarity in the names “Z’hadum” and “Khazad-dum.”
But I don’t call Straczynski a plagiarist, or accuse him of ripping off anybody. He’s merely taking his inspiration and adding enough of his own elements to make it something new and interesting.
Which show had the beard first?
The shaved head?
I’ve posted this list elsewhere, but here it goes again:
Amazing similarities between B5 and DS9
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A tragically widowed commanding officer who has a Destiny with heavy messianic overtones, and who really sharpened up character-wise once he grew a goatee.
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A contentious female 1st officer.
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A gruff-but-loveable security officer.
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A prissy, self-righteous doctor.
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A cute, annoying British guy (on B5, 4 and 5 are not the same person) who has an unrequited crush on one of the main female characters (both these female characters coincidentally leave at the end of next-to-last season).
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Two races that have a long history of hatred between them–one recently occupying the other’s planet. These races are primarily represented by two characters who despise each other, but still have some weird sexual tension between them.
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A prototypical warship used to fight a new and mysterious Enemy.
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Triangular pillows!
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A character named Dukat/Dukhat.
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A character named Leeta/Lyta.
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You could also draw some parallels between the Prophets and Vorlons, both being cryptic, godlike aliens who guide our messianic commanders on their spiritual journeys. There are similarities in Sisko’s relationship with Kai Opaka and Sheridan’s with Kosh.
I should add that, along with the X-Files, B5 and DS9 were my favorite shows for most of the '90’s.
I preferred DS9 because I got attached to more of the characters more quickly; I didn’t really take an interest in B5 until late in the 1st season.
I never resented the similarities; many of the above were the reasons I enjoyed both shows. Finding the parallels was part of the fun. I remember yelping “Defiant!” the first time I saw the White Star (or maybe it was “White Star!” at the Defiant; I forget which aired first), and laughing. Who was “stealing” from whom never entered into it.
I have even made a DS9/B5 chess set out of the 6-inch action figures, and the little guys all seem to get along fine.
I noticed this too. The last time I read LOTR, whenever I came across a passage mentioning the Third Age, I would hear John Sheridan saying, “It was the dawn of the Third Age of mankind…”
Those triangular pillows settle it for me.
I’m gonna tape over seven years of DS9.
The addition of Defiant is suspicious, until you consider this: DS9 got their kickass warship at the start of season 3 – the first show after TNG ended. By that point, they didn’t have to worry about confusing similarities with their sister show. Or, to put it another way, they still had starship stories to tell, and needed a new vehicle.
Why would DS9 steal from B5, but leave out the most intriguing concept – a U.N. in space?
Sisco WAS supposed to be guiding Bajor into Federation membership…
Straczynski used to say that his arc idea was based on a model that he saw as an improvement on the Twin Peaks concept. He felt that Twin Peaks failed, ultimately, because its major mystery could never be resolved. The show had to peter out, or else force itself to give up the very keystone to its plot.
Straczynski went into B5 with the general philosophy: no question we raise should go more than a year without being resolved. For example, in Season 1, it was “What happened to Sinclair the Battle of The Line?” This was half-answered in a mid-season episode and fully answered in the first episode of Season 2. Straczynski enjoyed using this to open new questions:
“What is lurking in hyperspace?” leads to “What are these Shadows?” leads to “What do these Shadows want?”
Straczynski often used foreshadowing (he seemed to enjoy using prophetic dreams a lot) to raise many of these questions.
There were some exceptions to the one-year rule (the question of “What does a Vorlon look like?” took two years to resolve each time it was raised), but for the most part, the model worked.