Was Hitler Christian?

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
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dougie_monty, I’m afraid I still don’t see what your point is. There is no question that the Catholic Church has been anti-semitic. And there is no denial of it on this thread. The worst would have been Paul IV (1555) who not only institutionalized the concept of the ghetto, making it law in Catholic countries, but issued proclamations prohibiting Jews from most forms of employment and ordered them to wear special identifying clothes. Anti-semitism has certainly continued among Catholics into recent history (e.g., Fr, Coughlin, who I mentioned). I do not see how this marks the Catholic church separately from most Protestant groups, however. Martin Luther, for example, ended his life calling for the extermination of the Jews.

Christians have obviously failed to follow Jesus and have failed in their moral responsibilities as regards to the Jewish people.

You began this by citing as evidence the lies inherent in The Deputy. Let’s look at the issue of Pius XII from a few perspectives. (It was Pius XII, BTW, Pius XI was rigorously outspoken against the Nazis. The issue of excommunication I addressed earlier.)

Here is a link to a Jewish exploration of Pius XII’s actions that basically condemn him. I would note that it is a general condemnation (which does not make it false) and that nearly all its accusations come from only two sources, neither of which I am familiar with:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

The same site provides these two defenses by Catholic apologists and historians:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef1.html

It also provides this defense by a Jewish member of B’nai B’rith who wrote it when The Deputy was making headlines and republished it on several later occasions:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef2.html

The following site is a bit too pro-Catholic for my comfort, but does document specific activities of the RCC in Nazi-occupied Europe:
http://www.cin.org/p12.html

The following treat the basic issue of Pius XII and his responses to the Holocaust:
http://www.catholic.com/ROCK/pius_xii.htm
http://www.netacc.net/~mafg/nazi02.htm http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ179.HTM

Finally, this article describes the anti-Nazi actions of Pius XI in detail, contrasting it with the more conciliatory style of his successor, Pius XII. It does not treat Pius XII as any kind of a hero, but it does point out the differences in temperament and philosophy that affected the decisions of Pius XII:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/magazine/article/0,5744,267976,00.html

I absolutely agree that Christianity failed its mission during the Holocaust. However, the failure was one of allowing, even nurturing, an anti-semitic bias to infuse the culture of Europe in the centuries prior to 1933 or 1941. By the time of the Holocaust, people within the church had begun to recognize that evil and had begun (too late) to condemn it and to actively oppose it. The U.S. church certainly had its Coughlins; it also had its La Farges (see the last link).

So I go back to my question: given the general failure of Christianity in Europe in the middle of this century, what is your point regarding Catholicism?

Tom~

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Uh, Diceman, did you actually read the Mailbag response in question here? From your post, I have to doubt it, because you say:

You see, if you’d read my answer, you’d already know my answer to this. You also said:

Yes, and? There’s no hole in my logic. Saying that Hitler was supported by many Christians does not imply he was supported by all Christians. I have to wonder if your knee is jerking a bit hard here…

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In any case, just to keep things straight, Hitler and his inner circle were most definitely not Christian (except in the technical sense of having been at some point in their lives baptized), no matter what they said in public. They were neo-pagans who loathed Christianity both for its moral principles and for its “Jewishness”. (Please do not misunderstand me as meaning that because Hitler was evil, he wasn’t Christian. Plenty of Nazi supporters were Christians – evil Christians, bad Christians, to be sure, but still Christians. But Hitler and the inner circle expressly repudiated Christianity amongst themselves.)

John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

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There is a verse in Paul’s letter to Titus which should be a filtering criterion for Hitler or anyone else who claims to be Christian; Chapter 1, verse 16:
“They publicly declare they know God, but disown Him by their works.” If the shoe fits, Dolf, wear it.
I don’t know who said this, but it’s cogent here:
“If Christian nations were nations of Christians there would be no wars.” :slight_smile:
The defunct Los Angeles Herald-Examiner carried a column by “Michael Manning, S.V.D.,” a Catholic priest who freely admitted to the atrocities committed in centuries past by the Church, not that he claimed they warrant censure of the Church in modern times.
Tomndeb, you still have not exculpated the Church from:
*The Inquisition and centuries of anti-Semitic policy by the Roman Catholic Church.
*The damning footnote at Revelation 2:9 I mentioned.
*The absence of any condemnation by the Pope of the horrors committed by Germany or Italy in World War II, even after the war was over. (If you can adduce documentation to refute that statement, by all means do so–and I hope I haven’t missed it in previous postings of yours. :o)

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You are severely lacking in historical perspective on these topics. People who whine about the Inquisition usually forget about the inquisitions held by Protestant-controlled countries. And what about the actions of Henry VIII, and other so-called reformers of England, like the Puritans? This is just the old “My shit doesn’t stink” syndrome. As for the anti-semetic catholics bit, didn’t you read the post about Martin Luther wanting to hold a Holocaust of his own? I’m not trying to hide behind an everybody-did-it defense, but if you want to condemn anti-Semetic actions in the past, you’ld better cast a much wider net.

Assuming it was for real, it’s probably only damning to the guy who wrote it. Disgruntled employees do things like this from time to time. Witness the HUD “Creole” brochure. Someone in HUD is/was a flaming racist, but do you think that the bureau itself is inherently racist? This footnote is most likely the same thing. Embarrasing, but it only represents the view of some disgrunled jerk in the bible-printing woodwork, and was most certainly not an officially sanctioned edit.

In fact, the Church has done this repeatedly, from before WW2 (by Pius XI) right up until today. As for why Hitler was never excommunicated, this had been covered above. Cecil reached essentially the same conclusion in the old “How do I get myself excommunicated?” thread. To sum up: If you’ve already serparated youself from the church, then excommunication is pointless.

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–It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats.

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Not to all. The Edit-your-post button has a few bugs in it :o

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I have also noted that Pope Gregory XI thanked God that the Bible was in a dead language–Latin–that the people could not understand. (Joshua 24:14; Acts 5:38, 39)
And did you know that the decennial Passion Play at Oberammergau was put on as scheduled in 1936?

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To help put the footnote to Rev. 2:9 of the Confraternity edition into better context- [part of the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches] “Rev. 2:8 And to the angel of the church at Smyrna write: Thus says the First and the Last, who was dead and is alive: 9 I know thy tribulation and thy poverty, but thou art rich; and that thou art plundered by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.” footnote- “The Jews of Smyrna [my emphasis]are called the synagogue of Satan because of their interference with the Christian Church, the true synagogue.”

dougie_montie’s citation reads

So it seems to me there are some differences between d_m’s allegation and the actual footnote- first, it deals only with one particular Jewish community, not the Jewish people in general; second it does not appear to be a distortion of the meaning of the verse [it was the Jewish community in Smyrna with which the early church there was contending]; and third, while it certainly exhibits anti-Jewish bias, that was a reflection of the existing 1st or 2nd century bias, not a 20th century innovation.

Like some of the others, I’m sort of wondering what is the point of this thread.
Is it:

A- Christianity has a long and shameful history of anti-Semitism, or
B- the Catholic Church has a long and bloody history of persecuting non-Catholics, or
C- the Catholic Church has a special responsibility for Hitler and the Holocaust, greater than that of other mainline churches?

If it is A or B, I’m in agreement, but if it is C, then I’d argue against it.

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Well, the OP was “Did Hitler have Jewish parents?”, but this has diverged into a great debate.

I think the point broke down trying to determine if Hitler was Catholic instead. Which would be where the notion of blaming catholicism comes from.

Summary:
Hitler was not Jewish, though his father might have been.
Hitler probably was not Catholic, but pretended to be christian for convenience.
The RCC is evil.
Protestantism is evil.
Jews are in league with Satan.
I’m going to burn in hell for posting this.

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dougie_monty:

I have not exculpated the RCC from anything.

I have already acknowledged that the RCC has engaged in anti-Jewish rhetoric and activities and I offer no excuse for such shameful acts.

While I have not provided a serious response to your “footnote” issue, I have only your word that it even occurred and I do not know the circumstances. I will not, therefore, respond to this point unless you can provide documentation that it was a Church-wide conspiracy and not a publishing-house screw-up.

I can find no reason for the Catholic Church to apologize for the actions of two sovereign nations, neither of which were controlled by the RCC, (the Concordats were legal documents to stop those nations from interfering with the RCC, not documents allowing the RCC to control them), and both of whose actions were condemned by the RCC before the outbreak of the war: Italy in Non Abbiamo Bisogno and Germany in Mit Brennender Sorge.

You have now started dragging in extraneous stuff that has no bearing on the relationship between Hitler and the RCC. The play at Oberammergau is a civic/tourist-promoting activity, not a religious one. In the 1960’s, the RCC leaned on the folks in that village to “tone down” the anti-Jewish rhetoric in their play and the village told the Church to “stuff it.” (Your continued digs at the Vulgate have no place in this discussion that I can find.)

My position, from the beginning, has been

  • that the RCC–and all of Christianity–has a shameful history in its realtionship to and its treatment of the Jewish people;
  • that the result of this intolerance was a culture of anti-semitism that allowed the Holocaust to be perpetrated–too often with the aid of Christians, including, obviously Catholics;
  • but that the actions (or inactions) of Pius XII set out by Hochhuth in the Deputy are basically false: it can be argued that his desire to avoid confrontation led him to be too circumspect in challenging the Nazi’s directly, (and if you want to join those who condemn him for that, you may), but it is wrong to claim that he simply sat back and ignored the actions of the Nazi’s in light of his participation in the writing of Mit Brennender Sorge, his Christmas address of 1942, his directives to the bishops of Europe to take any steps to rescue Jews, and his invitation to Jews to take refuge in the Vatican City and his private retreat at Castolo Gandolfo.

If you want to go off to Great Debates or the BBQ Pit and start an “I Hate the Catholic Church” thread, feel free. Since I have provided ample factual reference (con as well as pro) in the eight links I posted a couple of days ago, I see no point in carrying this discussion forward. You have still not set forth a specific thesis other than to post “here’s a bad thing I found” notes.

Tom~

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You are right, Tomndebb, that I have apparently followed some tangents here. I intend, however, to stand by a few points:
*Hitler never repudiated his membership in the Catholic Church, and the atrocities he committed, which are supererogatory to repeat here, belie any claim that he was “Christian”: it is of course inconceivable that Jesus or any of the faithful apostles (or other faithful disciples mentioned in the New Testament) would have done anything Hitler did as Fuehrer. (Mohandas Gandhi once stated that European Christianity–Catholicism included–was “the negation of the religion of Jesus.” :()
*I have also erred in my citation of the news article I mentioned, the open letter urging that Hitler be excommunicated: it was the Catholic Telegraph-Register, of September 1, 1939, published in Cincinnati–not a regular commercial newspaper. And note this editorial comment preceding the text of the “open letter”:
"(While we carry the article below as ain interesting news item, we do not agree editorially that it is wise to seek action on such a grave matter as excommunication. It is best to leave to the church authorities all such matters. They know best all the points involved and the possible consequences.–EDITORS.
*I will grant that my mention of the Oberammergau Passion Plays was a bit off the mark; the closest connection I can make is that, regardless of the dictatorship Hitler imposed in Nazi Germany his government paid no attention to the plays. You may be right about the tourism aspect, however; after all the 1936 Berlin Olympics were well attended.
*That said, I agree it is improper for me to single out the Catholic Church as instigator of the Holocaust. I used to work with a carpenter from Kiel–who was not Catholic–and he told me one of the things Hitler seized on when he came to power was that a Stalinist government had been installed in Bavaria–and–well, all right–I don’t and can’t blame THAT on the Catholic Church.
In passing, I shall confess that there are quite a few people I have known who are Catholic and have high ideals; and I will not assume that the one is or is not a function of the other. After all, isn’t it true that there are many people who call themselves atheists, and yet we know and like, and many people who call themselves Christian, and we know and detest?

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To sum it up, I paraphrase Forrest Gump here: “Christian is as Christian does.”–cf. Titus 1:16.