Pius XII

As a former Catholic I’m a bit troubled by this email column. I feel it is worth mentioning that most Catholics were racists against Jews at this time at this time. This was not particular to Pius XII. Please don’t take this as any attempt to excuse it, but they were the prejudiced kind of racist, and not the kill-all-Jews type that the Nazis were. They felt as so often is the case with racism that the Jews and Catholics could never coexist together and for this reason all Jews would be better of being removed from Europe. As deplorable as it is, it is very hard to relate this sort of anti-semitism with that that would turn a blind eye to the violence against Jews. And I must object to this insinuation. Pious was an anti-semite, but this in itself does not mean he didn’t do all he thought he could to save the Jews. It may be true. He might have been able to do more, but this is not because he hated the jews.

What if he did do all that Cornwell thought he should have done? Made more explicit public statements to condemn the holocost, and excommunicated Catholic Nazis. He might have died in a concentration camp, but would that have saved more Jews, or would it have resulted in more Jews dying?

Although it is hardly worth making the distinction, it is my understanding that the account Pacelli sent was actually written by his aid.

I think the real question that bothers us today is that we read about the atrocities commited by the Nazis and we think we didn’t anyone speak out against it. We always feel they should have done more. They should have been able to stop it.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031017.html

There is certainly some justice in the notion that very few people, even popes, can find the optimal solution to the problem of facing, unarmed, a homicidal maniac with a gun.

Remember that the Nazis regarded Christianity (and Catholicism in particular) as just another part of the Great Jewish Conspiracy. They soft-pedaled their contempt in public, because the name of Christ still had (so to speak) broad brand-name recognition, but Christian clergy in Germany knew the truth.

On the other hand, many Roman Catholic intellectuals flirted (or more) with fascism, and not all of them (*e.g., *Roy Campbell) even had the poor excuse of being Italians.

Well said, especially the first paragraph.

I always wonder it is always the Catholic Church. Weren’t there other Christians and countries with Protestant majorities (most of whom, by the way, were also brave Christians)? And I also wonder if the Pope had stopped Hitler somehow, we’d have a thread here “Why did the Pope stop Hitler?” or “Why does the Church intervene in politics? re: Hitler”

Fascism, by virtue of anti-communism, was definitely atractive to Catholic intelecutals (and a number of clergy), most of whom should’ve know better.

Let’s see. When the Pope controls everything and peole follow him, he is a despot; if people disobey him he is ineffective. I guess I won’t be signing in for Pope anytime soon.

It’s large and centralized. That does saddle each and every pope with a terrible responsibility, willy-nilly. (Insert Spider-Man quote here.)

Your right, the Catholic church did indeed flirt with facists, but importantly only with conservtative facists in Catholic countries, like Mussolini and Franco.

The best article I’ve read on the subject is written by Mark Riebling:

http://www.markriebling.com/nazipope.html

Containing over 80 footnotes, so it’s very well-researched and documented.

A few notes are in order:

The Nazis accused Pacelli (Pius XII) of conspiring with the Jews. He certainly made speeches condemning the Nazis - “The Church will never come to terms with the Nazis as long as they persist in their racial philosophy.” It got to the point where the Nazis distributed booklets claiming he was pro-Jewish, and Himmler wanted him dead. (The link above has an SS cartoon with the accusation.)

On the contrary, many Jewish groups at the time supported him as being friendly. Basically, Pius XII was viewed as being anti-Nazi… up until Hochhuth.

Rolf Hochhuth, the playwright who accused Pius XII of being pro-Nazi, was himself a Hitler Youth and anti-clerical. He even admitted that the play “not follow the historical course of events.”

After that, though, began the criticism of Pius as not having done enough.

The article gives a much better version of this.

One thing though, I wouldn’t read too much into Hochhuth being a member of the Hitler Youth as, though some did try to avoid it, membership was compulsory during Nazi-era Germany,.

So, in the face of overwhelming force and pressure, Hochhuth capitulated and joined the Nazi youth, though he may have been against it.

Then he critizies the Pope for capitulating to the Nazis in the face of overwhelming force and pressure, even though the Pope may have been against it.

Ah… I see.

Well no that was defintely not what I’m saying it is just that, I’ve seen this line used before to attack people, but I DO think Hochhuth’s play was based on a faulty premise.

I wouldn’t say the Pope capitualed to the Nazis either, I would say that despite his stong criticisms he was toothless.

MC Master of Ceremonies, When you say toothless, do you believe that in his situation he wasn’t able to do anything, or is there something you would have liked for him to do?

I have heard 5,000 Jews were sheltered in Vatican City. That doesn’t strike me as toothless.

Well, I primarily mean that he wasn’t able to do much. Probably more could of been done, but it’s bad history when you start placing judgements on peoples actions without considering the benefits of hindsight.

Letss face it, may people complain about andti-semitism. No one wants to point out anti-catholism.

It’s a sad thing to notice that Cathosim is a popular scape goat…especially to a protestant centric society.

According to Richard Shenkman, Author of Legends,Lies and Cherished Myths Of World History During three centuries of the Spanish Inquisiton 25,000 people died. Protestant Burning of Wiches claimed 700,000 people during the same period. We don’t hear abou them as much, because according to Shenkman, we are a protestant based country. And Protestants wrote the history books.

People have the tendency to forget that Italy was facist and then later occupied by Nazis. The Pope may not have had the ability to speak out as much as he did…but he DID write to the United States and warned them not to trust Hitler.

The facts are this…its popular to Catholic Bash.

I have a friend who had relatives with the misfortune of living in Eastern Germany, not only during the Nazi Regime but during the subsequent Communist rule.

It’s very difficult for any of us to even imagine the concept of being that powerless. We live in a country where anyone can speak out and there is little that can be done to stop them.

During those regimes, speaking out didn’t just mean you died. It meant your family as well. It’s entirely one thing to be willing to sacrifice your life for a cause - but are you willing to sacrifice your child too? This is how the yoke was kept on.

“Why didn’t you do something?” Some people did. They’re buried in piles, in Auschwitz, and Dachau, and Buchenwald. Their bones are mixed in with people who had the misfortune of being a Jew, or a Gypsy, or one of the other many persecuted groups at the wrong time and in the wrong place.

Both figures are almost certainly too high by at least an order of magnitude.

Henry Kamen’s The Spanish Inquisition: An Historical Revision (1997; Pheonix, 1998) is one of the major recent reviews of the subject. As far as I can see, he doesn’t quite settle on an overall figure, but he does note (p203) that:

He also, however, records a few instances outwith this estimate where a few thousand were probably executed in a short period.
As for the witch trials, Ronald Hutton suggests a concensus figure of 40-50,000 for the period 1428-1782 in The Triumph of the Moon (Oxford, 1999; 2001, p132). This covers both Protestant and Catholic jurisdictions.

I’ve no idea of Kamen’s religious views. Hutton’s are touched on in this recent thread.

Perhaps someone should write a column titled “How many people died in the Spanish Inquisiton?”

I read “Hitler’s Pope,” incidently written by a Catholic, who got an opportunity to read otherwise undisclosed Papal documents of the time. He describes planning to write a defense of Pius XII / Eugenio Paceli, but after studying, found the information more condemning than ever expected.
Hitler was a dues paying Catholic throughout his life. He was never excommunicated. Catholics might think then, if he received the Last Rites, he’s in heaven now! The minority of Germany was
Catholic, but we must remember that the vast majority of Europe was Catholic. Most of the biggest killing extermination camps were in Catholic countries. If the Pope said, “It’s a sin to kill Jews,” there would have been more hesitancy and less glee. To say that “everyone was antisemitic then,” is of course nearly the truth, but the Pope was supposed to remind the world that murder is a sin. Not only did he not do this, he forcefully opposed and squelched those in every level of the Catholic hierarchy, throughout Europe, who thought to oppose the genocide. So he sacrificed the lifves of millions of jews, homosexuals, gypsies, etc., so that the strength of the Vatican could grow.
Read the book! It’s astounding!
Dan

;j Sometimes Cecil is a real weenie. Note that the Pius XII letter to Rome also mentions that the people in question are Russian. Is anyone writing articles accusing P of being anti-Slavic?

Anti-anti-Semitism is a plague. Isreal is a symptom. Yes, I think this is relevant.

Anti-anti-protestantism is a plague. The USA is a symptom, yadda yadda…

right? :rolleyes:

a) Quote on that.
So he’s a murderer,he never goes to Mass, he lives in adultery with Eva Braun, forms a quasi-religious cult, slanders Christianity every time he could and still he is a good catholic.

b) Jesus promised forgiveness for everyone who repented so that even the “baddest” person could go to heaven.

c) Let’s see, people pay lots of attention to the pope with abortion and contrasceptives, don’t they? By the way he said it was wrong to believe in superiority of race.