Was I Wrong?

Well, Satan was the person who actually started the whole thing - he is the first person to go to the LBBB, he is the one who started the thread, he is the one who ‘instigated’ others to join that board and enter the discussions there, and he was a member of that board, and posting there, before any of the ‘attack troops’ joined.

Why isn’t anyone calling for Satan’s banishment? Since so many people seem to think that David B. and the other SDMBers ‘acted like jerks’, why is no one criticising Satan for starting the whole thing?

It looks like Satan went to that board, got his ass scalded, came running back to the SDMB for reinforcements, and ‘instigated’ the whole incident. If anyone is at ‘fault’ here, it is Satan - why is he not being castigated for being a ‘jerk’? (And please, don’t anyone be so dumb as to say that the others were big boys/girls and didn’t have to follow Satan’s lead.)

This whole discussion about David B.'s fitness as a moderator has a distinct flavor of revenge, in taking advantage of a convenient (for the complainers) circumstance to cause him harm.

As much as I admire Melin and Majormd, this is beginning to look like a couple of people who are pissed off about being ignored, both in a particular thread and then in the Pit, and are desperately trying to make David B. pay attention to them.

Give it a rest, ladies - you’re starting to sound like Contestant #3 in his heyday.


Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley

Spiritus Mundi wrote:

What I said in my post was my opinion. In my opinion, if I or another atheist/agnostic/Jew/liberal Christian goes to a fundamentalist Christian message board to ask questions, to start debate, to try to explain his point of view etc. that is fine with me. If I as an atheist go to a fundamentalist board, think their ideas are too funny for words and call in a bunch of friends with similar views to mine to go “teach them true debating styles” then that is board disruption. If you read the excerpts in Melin’s original post you will see that David was not the one that first went to the LBBB. But after someone else called for SD’ers to post there, David was definitely one of the most active and one that encouraged others to go to that board and post. David was also the one that tried to make it untracable to this board.

You say that we should only judge moderators by how they moderate their board. I disagree. I think a moderator should be held to a higher standard than you or I are. One that violates a cardinal rule of message boards should not be allowed to remain a moderator.

I have never had a problem with David. I have never had a post pulled. When I have had discussions with him (see the Christmas in the Schools thread in GD) he has been civil and answered my main questions. So on a personal level, I have no complaints with him as a moderator. On the grander schemes, I think his actions are bad enough that he should be removed.

I can understand how some feel they have been shamed and harmed as a result of the actions of a few. In truth I cannot think of a thing I said in that thread in my infrequent appearences that I would not say to the Left Behinder’s faces. I do think the excerpt of the book has lousy prose; I do think there are some nice people over there, and then some who say unintentionally amusing things. :slight_smile:

David seems to be the focus of all this ire, despite the fact that we are all adults and choose to participate or not, or to ignore. We are not such sheep that we will follow anyone with the title “moderator”. If you did not participate or were unaware, I do not see how you can feel ashamed of your actions. Truthfully, despite the furtiveness, I never saw our members get offensive, and I believe them when they say they meant to educate, not harass. They are free to participate on any board they like; atheists and non-fundamentals certainly were not forbidden on the LBMB. Few of the “pounders” had even noticed anything even a little unusual. I admit I like David, so I am biased in his defense; but Sue and Melin had a heated feud going with him almost immediately before this mess, and it seems clear to me (and many others) that they are strongly biased against him. This seems to be a personal vendetta rather then righteous offense. I defended Melin when she was fired from her moderating position, but I am not particularly impressed with the way she now seems to go after the remaining moderators and administrators at every opportunity. Much of the OP and Sue’s later post refers back to previous “slurs” they believe they have received at the hands of David, rather than the LBMB issue.

David apologized for his actions at the LBMB immediately, in several threads. It seems a very ugly thing to continue to harass someone who has admitted his fault and apologized; nor can David join into a pit thread to defend himself without making this mess bigger. The “pounders” seem to have forgiven and moved on, and David and they seem quite friendly; I am pleased to have several new members with fresh points of view. Who was harmed in this incident? It was not Sue or Melin; it was the Left Behind members. If they can forgive…should we do less?

Let us put this behind us NOW, and welcome our new members.

“Certain duties are also to be observed, even towards those who have wronged you; for there is a mean even in revenge and punishments. Nay, I am not certain whether it is not sufficient for the person who has injured you to repent of the wrong done, so that he may never be guilty of the like in the future, and that others may not be so forward to offend in the same manner.” –-Cicero, 44 B.C.

~looks at Gaudere~

Damn! There you go again being all reasonable, and in the PIT no less.

~claps for Gaudere on his way out the door~


The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

Shannon, you are missing the point, or at least part of it, and you are overlooking some things.

DESPITE the feud that David and I were engaged in the Christmas in the Schools thread, please note that my first reaction was to DEFEND him when he was attacked by the LBMBers. (Despite your comment about my jumping the admins, I’ll note that I defended Ed in the fray with Opal, and got a “thank you” from him for it. In the incident involving the slur on Sue, I was by no means the only person who thought that was way out of line. The most vocal, maybe, but by no means the sole.)

I know that David has manny years of experience as a moderator on boards other than this, and so my original impression was that the first wave of fundies that invaded this place, with their bible-thumping spam, were wrongly attacking David for his participation in their forum with his views on evolution. In my post on the Pit thread about David being an ass, I commented that while I agreed that David was that way, he was our ass. In other words, I was prepared to, and did, defend him against what I considered to be the unfair attacks of strangers.

Thus, I consider it unfair for you to call this a “personal vendetta” – it most certainly is not. If I think that something is wrong, I will call it as wrong regardless of who says or does it, and if I think that something is right I will defend that regardless of who says or does it. Thus, when I thought that David was being unfairly attacked by the LBMBers, I posted in his defense.

When I took the time to sit down and wade through the entire For David B thread, I began to feel that I had been at best mistaken and at worst deceived. That thread shows – well, we’ve all been over what it shows, and it’s still there for people to read. The things which I and other posters have said happened did happen, and no one denies them. That moderator hat which David does wear does, according to precedent, require him to conform to a higher standard, as per TubaDiva’s quoted post. And, like it or not, what he does reflects on the site – certainly that was apparent when the LBMBers came over here indignant at the whole group of us based on the actions of one identified as our moderator.

You may not see this as consistent with my past posting history, but I do. I have always thought that a moderator’s posts and behavior DO reflect, for better or worse, on the site. That’s why I tangled with Jill over what I perceived as a racist post, because I didn’t think that a moderator, representing this board, should possibly be perceived as having those views (and I don’t want to argue that all over again; obviously there are differing points of view as to whether it was that way, but that was how I saw it and reacted); that’s why I tangled with Nickrz over the thing with Sue, because I didn’t think that anyone, let alone a moderator, should make that kind of an undeserved attack on a member; that’s why I have objected to the somewhat cavalier manner in which members’ complaints around here are responded to; and that’s why I have the opinion that David’s actions in this matter constitute “conduct unbecoming to a moderator.” It’s a rather old-fashioned way to say it, but I think that each of these incidents brought shame to the board.

That’s just MHO, of course. Your mileage may vary. But I calls 'em the way I sees 'em.

-Melin

If it is not a personal vendetta, why did you bring up his “insults” to you in the Christmas thread? Why do they have any bearing if your problem with him is wholly righteous and not influenced at all by previous clashes?

He has apologized to the Left Behinders and apparently been completely forgiven. A very very few of them showed any great distress, and they responded with actions that were wrong as well, and completely out of proportion. Let it go. Your actions bring shame on the board, by showing one of us can be as intolerant and unforgiving as the worst stereotype of a fundie.


“Certain duties are also to be observed, even towards those who have wronged you; for there is a mean even in revenge and punishments. Nay, I am not certain whether it is not sufficient for the person who has injured you to repent of the wrong done, so that he may never be guilty of the like in the future, and that others may not be so forward to offend in the same manner.” –-Cicero, 44 B.C.

I think we all calls 'em the way we sees 'em. Me personally, I likes the way Gaudere called it.

Coosa -

You’re right in saying that Satan was the original poster and original instigator. No one here has suggested anything to the contrary.

However, for most of the 50 days and nearly 700 posts before this all blew up, the posts chronicled on the “for David B.” thread clearly show that David B. had picked up the flag and was spear-heading the assualt.

The difference between David’s participation and the others’ is that a moderator IMO does not have the freedom to designate some actions on their home board as moderator actions, and others as private individual actions.

I understand that others do not make this distinction. We all have our different ideas on this. But to me, credibility & consistency are necessary qualities in a moderator, while they are desireable, but optional in members. That is why I stated my opinion as I did.

Sue from El Paso

Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.

Gaudere posts:

and then posts again:

You are right, Shannon. We did bring up issues from how David behaved in the Christmas in Schools thread.

To wit:
David never did fully answer some questions posed to him in that thread. Yet he mocks the LBers for ignoring/not fully answering some of his questions.

One justification he gave for ignoring certain posters in the CiS thread was that Melin brought me in to join the argument. Yet in several posts in the “For David B.” thread, he asks others to keep coming & supporting him.

The CiS issues were NOT raised to continue beating that dead horse, but to point out inconsistencies in what David considered acceptable behavior. That is why they “have bearing” in our posts.

And you can go on believing that the posters who went over there were honestly going to exchange opinions, or at worst have a little fun (You know, like a bunch of Marines going into a gay bar are just looking for fun), but then why the secrecy? Why the post gloating at having a post there pulled (or was it UserName banned) in 29 minutes if this was to gain an appreciation of their viewpoint?

As I have posted before, I think that consistency and credibility are necessary for a moderator - a moderator is expected to be fair and impartial, and, in all honesty, I can think of no occasion in which David has used his moderator position in an unfair manner. I also have faulted David for adding to the heatedness of recent debates when in my opinion, a moderator should try to keep things cool. I realize now that the GD forum operates as an unmoderated forum in that regard, with David’s role as moderator being limited to keeping the place spam-free, and free from the worst repetitive behavior of trolls.

It may be that in that limited capacity, my ideals of consistency and credibility have no real meaning, and are not necessary to the position. I don’t see it that way. Ultimately, the administrators will decide or may have already decided this. I felt a need to set out my opinion (maybe this was vanity or pompous on my part, if you think so, that’s fine by me). I have done so. It is not my intent to continue this discussion indefinitely, but I will respond when necessary to correct gross misrepresentations/misunderstandings of my position.


Sue from El Paso

Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.

By your reasoning, Sue, Melin doesn’t have any credibility either, since she used to be a moderator and now is not because she got in a public feud with another moderator.


“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather

Comparing genuine discussion on an open message board with marines going into a gay bay (ostensibly, in your implication, to physically attack and harass the members) is a “gross misrepresentation” as you put it. Perhaps if in your example, the marines went in politely, discussed issues calmly with the members, gained a greater understanding of the gay point of view, and those few who were booted much later on were only kicked out for breaking a rule new to them it would have some merit. David was not one of the ones who gloated about getting banned; he did not get banned until MBagnall’s mass-banning.

David has repented and cannot/will not involve himself in this pit thread without compromising his apology and position. You are attacking someone who has already apologized and cannot defend himself—-and attacking his job, not just his person, for his personal actions. To me, this seems vicious, and mean, and spiteful.

If you wish to rant ad nauseum about how David ignored and insulted you in the Christmas thread, be my guest. But as to the LBMB incident, it is ugly to continue to attack after an apology has been given. I think for most the incident is dead and buried, whereas you two insist on digging up the moldering corpse and making it dance around. Both of you have given your opinion repeatedly; drop this now and let us move on.

“Certain duties are also to be observed, even towards those who have wronged you; for there is a mean even in revenge and punishments. Nay, I am not certain whether it is not sufficient for the person who has injured you to repent of the wrong done, so that he may never be guilty of the like in the future, and that others may not be so forward to offend in the same manner.” –-Cicero, 44 B.C.

Gaudere,

I hope that for the sake of consistancy in your argument, you are as supportive of me as I continued to be attacked and ridiculed here post-apology…

I did support you when you came back, remember? Even before your apology. I was Ok with your SN getting booted the first time, because you did apparently spam (IMHO), but I never wanted you to be banned forever, so long as you were not too grossly offensive and did not spam. Unless I’ve missed it, no one’s called for your banning.

…and of course your actions after the apology are not magically cleared, just the ones previous to it that you apologized for. If you have been a real jerk after your apology and I have missed it, you should be held resposible, unless you apologize (sincerely) again.

Wow. And here I thought us LBers were the only ones getting upset here. You want a Pounder’s take on it? David was not exactly pure in his motives, but he caused no real disruption on the LBBB. Same goes with Soulfrost, Firefly, and multiple others. Here I’m going out on a limb and risking extending a personal dislike I have of one of you… It was obvious to MANY people when Satan came on the LBBB site that he did so just to cause trouble. And it didn’t take long for him to run away. The LB administration did not handle the situation in a good way at all, but just so all of you know, David didn’t do anything worthy of all the ridiculous spamming that happened.

Phil asks:

Bad logic, Phil. If lack of credibility (as I assert) is a cause for removal from a moderator position, it does not follow that removal from a moderator position can only be due to a lack of credibility. In this case, as was explained ad nauseum at the time and in several rehashes since then, Melin’s main crime was to not obediently agree to never publicly disagree with another moderator.Apples and oranges.

Gaudere posts:

Or maybe the Marines(SDers) just get some laughs watching the homos(fundies) squirm in the face of your superior brawn(intellectual prowess).

Shannon, reread my posts. Since first stating my opinion on 1/3, I have not intensified my attack on David. I have, in fact, agreed with you that David has not been unfair or discriminatory in his actions as a moderator. I have acknowledged that some of our past clashes are MY problem due to MY misinterpretation of what a moderator was supposed to do. I have, and will, continue to address misrepresentaions of my position that YOU raise. Please understand that my responding to you is not the same as continuing to attack David.

Yeah, that sounds good, Shannon. I have, as of several days ago, stopped directly attacking David. Let’s all stop misrepresenting each other’s positions, and let this drop.

While I was composing this, I have learned of some genuine ugliness & threats over on the GD board:
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000919.html

This is suddenly trivial.

Sue from El Paso

Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.

Okay, I admit it, I’m the one who brought Sue’s attention to that other thread. . . :wink:

Our issues are our issues, and we have a right to debate them, of course, but in light of strangers suddenly appearing to threaten David, I think it appropriate that we end this discussion now, at least for the time being.

Lynn, will you please close this thread?

-Melin

I’m closing this thread at the request of Melin, the OP.