Was I Wrong?

The BBQ Pit
1

. . . to defend David B in the recent unpleasantness that blindsided this board, with the “infiltration” from the people from the Left Behind Message Board (LBMB)?

Make no mistake, I think the LBMB people have handled these recent proceedings very poorly. Ninety-five per cent of them who have shown themselves here have been nothing better than rude, obnoxious spammers. Sanctimonious, self-righteous, showing the worst of those who claim to be followers of Christ.

I posted a defense of David B in the “For David B” etc. thread in Great Debates. http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000628-13.html To the claim that the LBMB people were only defending themselves from us, and that David B was one of the “instigators” of an “attack” on them, I responded:

Thereafter, upon spending some time at the LBMB, and after taking the time here to sit down and read through the entire “For David B.” thread (which I had looked at when it first opened and hadn’t returned to until yesterday), I have to wonder whether I was wrong to do so, at least in part.

First, it now appears that, in fact, David B was indeed “so cowardly as to hide behind an anonymous SN.” I posted my scorn about the LBMB people who came over to disrupt our board and were so cowardly as to not even post an email address. I still believe that this is true of them. Sadly, it apparently is true of David as well. Back in that same thread, he wrote:

So not only was David not willing to stand behind what he was saying on the LBMB, he wanted other people to do his dirty work for him.

He also wanted to be careful that the people on the LBMB board not be able to trace him (and other SDMB members participating) back here:

And again:

I do not believe that David meant to engage in board disruption over there as we understand that term, and certainly not in the way that members of that board have engaged in spamming and disruption of this board in the last two days. For all David’s faults, I also believe him when, as he says on the For David B thread, that he did not lie. He had valid points to argue. And he does not appear to have engaged in “warfare.”

It is a closer question in my mind as to whether, however, David abused his position as moderator here in this incident. True, as I stated when I defended him, he did not go to that other board in any official capacity (indeed, he made every effort to hide his presence on THIS board from THAT board). Nevertheless, David as moderator here in this forum, posting with the identification “moderator” beneath his name, truly spearheaded the effort to go to that other board with posts he knew would be considered offensive there, and encouraged other members of this board to do the same.

I find it ironic that in the Christmas in Schools thread David used, as one of his justifications for refusing to respond to MajorMd and/or myself (banishing us to “Coventry”) the fact that I had brought Sue’s attention to the thread in question, knowing that it was something she would be interested in. Indeed, David wrote, in that thread:

And again:

[quote]

David B
Moderator posted 12-23-1999 09:46 AM

quote: [from MajorMD]

I have, as yet, seen no response from you as to what it is in my posts that you consider unreasonable.

Actually, I did in my first message on the subject, though I admit I could have been clearer. I said: “Heck, she even brought in her pal Sue for backup to have somebody else chanting, ‘David answer the question.’” In other words, the way it looked to me was not that you came in here just as a coincidence and coincidentally wanted to know the answers to the same questions as Melin. It appeared to me that your friend called you in as backup. There have been at least two occasions in the past where one of you came, for lack of a better term, rushing to the rescue of the other one, chiming in against whoever was on the opposite side of the table. It looked to me like this was another such occasion, and I wanted none of it. This view was reinforced when the very first sentence of your first message here was:
quote: [quoting MajorMD]

A few questions have been asked that you haven’t answered.

Now, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it was just an incredible coincidence and my view was colored by the previous instances. I will say, for the record, that I don’t think it was a coincidence. But I also will not ask you to tell me either way because if it is not a coincidence, I don’t want to put you in the position of choosing to rat out Melin or lie for her. And if it is really a coincidence, the way to convince me wouldn’t be to

2

Melin, I was quite impressed with your defense with him; I thought it was very honorable of you to put aside your differences. Yes, the LBMB thread was not the most mature thing I’ve ever seen, and I did sneak over to their site from time to time, though I never posted. David was not the only one in on it; take us all to task if you fault him: RTFirefly, Falcon, DrF, me, SoulFrost…

You seem to be using it to go back to the same points you’ve been hammering in your other pit thread. We are intelligent and capable of forming our own opinions, here, both of you and of David. He’s aggressive and he steps on toes, but I think most would agree that he’s basically decent. When I saw this thread, I was dismayed because it seems to indicate to me that you are intent on fanning the embers of your conflict, which makes it hard for either side to back down. He has not started any pit threads about you nor slurred you recently; the longer this feud stays alive the harder it will be for a reconciliation.

And the email thing? Most have no problem with people having no email listed, as far as I can see; I personally can respect that people might not want email.

“I believe it is easy to loose sight of the fact the the Lord has created athiests for a reason…to test our faith. They tempt us with reason and facts… Embrase agnostics!! I would cry it from every rooftop: ‘Embrase an agnostic!’” --“Bell”, on the LBMB

3

Who cares?

4

You have a good point there, Lawrence.

5

I think you were wrong to so casually accuse the Left Behinders of cowardice for not including e-mail addresses. I object to their spamming, but I don’t see cowardice in their decision not to list e-mails – and I don’t see cowardice in David making the same decision when he visited the other message board.

I also think you were wrong – although noble – to back David so strongly against the initial deluge of complaints from the Left Behinders. As you have learned from reading the full thread, David had a touch of malice (or at least mischief) in his heart during his visits to the LBMB. David and his cohorts in that project were being a little immature, the Left Behinders rightly felt tricked and they vented their spleen for a while. Now it’s over.

I do not think David misused his position as moderator. It’s unfortunate that the ``moderator’’ tag shows up on purely personal, unofficial posts, but I don’t see how anyone would think he was putting his moderator hat on and using that title to encourage the visits to Left Behind.

Let’s move on.

Up, up and away!

6

Gaudere posts in response to Melin:

Gaudere, just to point out the obvious - Melin & I are separate individuals. I started the Pit thread outlining my reasons for feeling that David was more interested in playing games than in conducting an open & honest discussion. Melin has not started any such thread.

I have not read the entire “For David B. & Others” thread, and will reserve my final judgment until I can do so, but wanted to clarify now that Melin & I are not one and the same person.

Sue from El Paso

Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.

7

My apologies for the misidentification, Sue; I did not check the name and assumed from the similar arguments and tone that it was the same person that started the previous “David Sucks” thread. Mea Culpa.

8

Can I get away with saying I was using “you” as a plural? No? :wink: Truly, I think this is not the best way for either of you to get an apology from David, if that is what you desire, nor does it particularly impress me with your maturity relative to him.

9

The whole deal with the LBMB was uncalled for. There are many christian message boards on the net and there are message boards such as Straight Dope. Why these two struck out at each other was just a quirk. Everyone is entitled to believe as they will and for them to make the statements that they did about this message board…and for the people on this message board to make the statements they did about LBMB was totally a waste of time. I don’t think David needs to be defended. He made a mistake in encouraging some of the behavior that he did…but we’ve all done that…and that has nothing to do with his role of moderator. I don’t usually see eye to eye with him in several areas…but all in all he has a right to his opinion and and other than having a tendency to ignore those posters that he doesn’t deem worth his time…he’s ok. We all ignore some posters from time to time…whether it’s right or wrong…
You did ok Melin…don’t sweat it

10

I think Lawrence brought up a good point.

11

Melin, while you are waiting for your overdue, never to come, apology from David, reflect on the possibility that you and majormd might be doing the same thing to me that David has done to all of us. Are you so consumed with your own slight that you are unaware that others exist? What have I done to deserve the “pane of glass” treatment?

Y2K, BFD

12

Melin,

I can understand the desire to defend a friend or even fellow member of the SDMB but your GD stance was a surprise.

Over a period of weeks this group deliberately and maliciously posted on a board which they knew from the beginning would not change anyone’s mind, or add anything purposeful to that board. One of SDMB members admitted this within the first few posts.

Why continue if you knew you would not change anyone’s mind or add something purposeful to the board?

While David B’s postings on the Left Behind board did not say he was a moderator on this board but all of his postings on this subject here certainly did.

And what did that thread do the for SDMB? What did it add, explain, illuminate, answer? It certainly wasn’t a Great Debate, more likely a topic for the Pit or MPSIMS, if even there. And certainly not worth 12-14 pages of giggles and snickers.

I’m glad, Melin, that you went back and re-read the GD topic and thought it over again. Thanks.

13

OK. I bought the hip-waders & read through 14 pages worth of muck in the “For David B. and others…” thread Melin linked in her OP.

That the SDers who went over there weren’t doing so solely out of pure motivations was patently obvious when reading through that thread. Also obvious was the fact that David, if not the instigator of the “infiltration” became the leader, exhorting people who had expressed reservations about the propriety of this raid to join them, and encouraging people to stick with it, but at the same time taking measures to prevent being traced, such as not publicly posting e-mail addresses, cautioning SDers not to refer to the SDMB, or use links from here, lest they be traced here. In short, at some level I believe David knew this was wrong and was trying to prevent being “caught”.

The disdain that most of the participants, including David, felt towards most of the LBers was also obvious, and makes suspect his denial of being anti-Christian in the “Christmas in Schools” thread.

Is it OK, then, for David to publicly encourage SD posters to post on the LBMB, but not OK for one SD reg, Melin, to privately point out a thread of interest to another SD reg (myself)?

Is it OK, then, for David to ignore/partially answer questions/posters here in a thread he started, while simultaneously criticizing LBers for ignoring his questions?

Is it OK, then for David to deride the LBers for ad hominem attacks, and yet use his admittedly high intelligence, broad fund of knowledge, and sharp wit to provoke frustrated posters here into attacks? And if they are well-matched in intelligence, knowledge, and wit, and avoid the ad hominem attack pitfall, to then accuse them of “posting-to-win”? If you don’t think David has been posting to win, I’ll share this from the “For David B & others” thread, page 5:

And this is not from just any poster on the SDMB, this is from one of our moderators.

Changes are needed in the GD forum. In the past, I have suggested that moderators who wish to post to do so under separate UserNames (although I respect the admin’s reasons for not doing so). That way their posts carry no more weight than any any other posters, and would be subject to the same rules as any other posters. Same standards aply to all. But when moderators are posting as themselves, no matter how many [moderator hat ON/OFF] gimmicks they may employ, different standards should apply. Moderators should be held to higher standards than other posters, and IMO, promote an environment free of the personal attacks so frequently seen in recent (pre-apocalypse) threads. That doesn’t mean that weak arguments can’t be attacked. Debate is all about challenging the facts and and logic used to arrive at one’s beliefs or conclusions. That doesn’t mean that wit has no role in debates; things would get awfully stuffy otherwise. It does mean that attacks should be strictly confined to facts & ideas, and not allowed to include the posters themselves.

Before reading through the “For David B & others” thread, I had hoped that David could effect such a change himself. As stated above, I respect his intelligence, scope of knowledge, and wit; these are needed by anyone who would moderate this forum. But another key quality is credibility - posters need to believe that a moderator acts without bias, with no axes to grind, and with no pre-conceived impressions of certain individuals or groups.

Speakly strictly for myself, I feel that David’s credibility has been shot & killed by recent events.

Sue from El Paso

Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.

14

{Sigh} I have read most of the for David B etc. thread. I won’t lie and say I have read it all, it got pretty tedious in spots. I am relatively new to this board, but I have participated in other message boards for a couple of years now. One of the cardinal rules of all message boards is “Thou shalt not participate in Board Disruption.” I feel the people from this board who posted to the LB board did intend to disrupt that board. I am an atheist, I would never dream of going to a fundamental Christian message board to see if they could debate with me. It seems that is exactly what happened in this instance. In my opinion, going to a board where you know your opinion will not be appreciated, and worse calling on friends that share your views to do the same is board disruption, no matter how “politely” your posts are worded.
From what I read in the thread, Melin’s synopsis above is quite correct. It is apparent that David B. was, if not THE leader, then one of the leaders of this blatant board disruption.
My main impression was that the people that did this were much like Freshman Frat Boys going on their first panty raid. There is the same feeling of guilty pleasure, and worry about getting caught. This is a level of maturity that I cannot accept from a moderator on this board. Therefore, I reluctantly submit that David B. should resign as moderator, and if he does not resign, the administrators should remove him.

A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath.

15

Hey, I suggested that the thread be closed now that we are “moving on” but was told there still was a debate going on there. Woo. I guess if that is what you call it, it is still going on there.

It must be a matter of taste. Possibly acquired.

16

I haven’t read the "For DavidB … " thread. I have no intention of doing so; it sound at least tedious if not painful. I do not understand the idea that DavidB was the “leader” of a group of SDMB posters. Melin began this thread. Several others have supported her position. Does that make her your leader? Are we not all individuals responsible for our own behavior? Does the word “moderator” under a name grant a prestige and influence to which I have been oblivious? In the few months that I have been posting here I have yet to see any particular awe and veneration associated with the position of moderator. Maybe I’ve missed something.

I also do not understand the position that athiests should not post their ideas on a religious message board. Did the board state in it’s participation guidelines that its community was open only to Christians? I have seen at least one former LBBB poster who is Jewish – should he be excoriated for daring to post on a Christian message board? I have seen no evidence that DavidB or any of the others from SDMB violated LBBB protocol in any way except in posessing a different point of view.

As to DavidB’s fitness as a moderator, that should be judged solely by his actions as a moderator.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

17

Spiritus, if you haven’t read the thread in question then maybe you shouldn’t be making assumptions about what is and isn’t contained therein. 'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool . . . .

There’s a difference between someone starting a thread and other people posting to it in support thereof, and someone actively encouraging and recruiting people to do something. I’m sure you’re smart enough to figure that out. Did you read the excerpts, at least, from that thread that are in the OP?

David whined when I brought Sue’s attention to the Christmas in Schools thread, but was guilty of far more egregious behavior in what he did in the For David B thread. Sounds . . . hypocritical to me.

What, David? A hyocrite. . . ?

-Melin

18

Melin:
If you haven’t read my post carefully enough to understand it then perhaps you should follow your own advice.
Allow me to review the salient posts:

  1. SMDBers are big boys and girls who can (or at least should) think for themselves.

  2. I have seen no evidence on this board that moderators are held in such awe that they can interfere with point #1.

  3. David’s actions (and yes, I red the excerpts here and on many other threads) are his own responsibility as a private person. If you don’t like them, flame away. I have neither need nor desire to defend them.

  4. David’s fitness as a moderator should be judged by how he acts as a moderator, not by how he chooses to express himself as an individual.

  5. If you want to campaign for DavidB’s dismissal as a moderator, you should do it using his actions as a moderator on this board.

I have said nothing, nor do I care particularly, about your private quarrels with DavidB. I do care about people being judged unfit for their jobs (even volunteer jobs) based upon private behavior.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

19

Who gets to decide in which capacity his posts should be viewed? If you’re a cop are you only a cop when you wear the cop’s hat? Are you only a doctor part time?

Aren’t moderators picked because they are supposed to be free of politics and bias?

Things are not what they seem to be; nor are they otherwise.
[lankavatara Sutra]

20

Several months before you registered, an administrator of this board (TubaDiva)made the following post, after defending the firing of a moderator for having the audacity to criticize another moderator’s post as being racist, and refusing to agree never to make a further criticism of future similar statements, should they occur:

[quote]
If you work here, we want you to (no pun intended) moderate your actions. By the nature of the situation, staff members are held to a higher standard of behavior than users; all of you certainly expect stuff from us that you do not expect of one another.

[quote]
The bolding is mine.

http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000116-2.html

I have no “private quarrel” with David B. Even longer ago than the above quoted post he was happy to have me come to his assistance in a fight over posting copyrighted material with Connie #3. I do have a quarrel with his actions, which of late have seemed to grow more and more hypocritical and abusive, culminating in this latest debacle with the LBMB.

At this point, it is my opinion that David should do the honorable thing.

-Melin