It does, in The Republic, and Plato probably got it from Pythagoras, but still doesn’t mean that it had much popular currency outside of a few pointy-headed philosophers. Most Hellenistic people still believed in Hades.
Notovitch’s book was widely ridiculed at the time and has been rather decisively debunked. His “manuscripts” were his own invention. The monastary where he claimed to have found them said the manuscripts never existed and that Notovitch had never even been there.
The “Jesus in India” theme still gets some play today but it has absolutely no evidence to support it.
Plato was born after Pythagoras had died. Philolaus of Tarentum, a Pythagorean, wrote a book about his philosophy that surely Plato would have known of. Thus Pythagoras must be at least one of the sources about the notion of the transmigration of souls that Plato was aware of.
As for what most Greeks believed, if that included the transmigration of souls, then surely that would have been extensively written about. The dominant religious beliefs of a society would be well documented. Little evidence that the notion was popular outside of the pointy-headed philosopher crowd.
There’s been some missed points in this debate thus far. Allow me to try to address some of them…
First, it is clearly true that Christianity (as opposed to “Jesus”) was influenced by Eastern thought and beliefs. This has nothing to do with “Jesus” visiting the East, though. Instead, this link with the East derives from the fact that the invention of the mythical character we know as “Jesus” borrowed much from famous Eastern Savior/Messiah figures such as Krishna and several others.
Second, it is also clearly true that Christianity was heavily influenced by several Hellenistic thinkers, most notably in the form of Plato’s ideals and Philo of Alexandria’s Hellenistic Judaism, which owes much to Platonic thought.
Much of both Eastern and Hellenistic influence entered Christianity via Paul, whom I (and many others) consider to be the true founder of Christianity. Paul (and others to varying extents) subtly brought in – often via the concepts of Hellenistic Judaism of Philo – the esoteric subtleties of Platonism, Stoicism, Cynicism, the Jewish “Wisdom” literature, Philo’s ideas about the “Logos” and the “Intermediary Son”, and much, much more, possibly including Paul’s “secret” knowledge as an initiate in at least one of the Eastern-derived Gnostic Mystery cults.
If you read the New Testament carefully, without Christian-dogma-colored glasses, it becomes clear that Jesus is an invented mythical figure, the invention of which derives to an amazing extent with the following characteristics of non-Christian Savior / Godmen figures:
Thought to be predestined to birth during a special, if ambiguously identified, period of history.
Miraculous conception effected by spiritual entity.
Virgin birth, usually celebrated on or around December 25.
Birth usually heralded with stars or other astrological event (often with Eastern religious figures involved in some way, as in Christianity).
Special lineage (i.e., in Christ’s case, from David’s lineage).
Threatened in infancy, generally by tyrant fearful of new arrival.
Parental flight to foreign land (very often Egypt) to escape threat.
Bestowed with title of “Savior”, “Son of Man” and often “Son of God”.
Considered to be a God or God incarnate.
Considered to be co-equal with God or Gods.
Myths and fables featured often hidden astrological (Eastern) references.
Performed many miracles, often involving fish and especially including healings, casting out of demons, restoring sight or hearing, and raising the dead.
Participated in special communal meals, often commemorative.
Suffered a visceral and humiliating death, usually held to have taken place around the Vernal equinox.
Bodily restoration or resurrection, typically three days later.
Ascent, typically bodily ascent, into higher sphere or heaven.
<B>Here</B> is a list of various godmen/Christs/Saviors that fit many or most of that mold:
Adad of Assyria
Adonis of Greece
Alcides of Thebes
Attis of Phrygia
Baal and Tuat, “the only Begotten of God,” of Phoenicia
Bali of Afghanistan
Beddru of Japan
Buddha of India
Cadmus of Greece
Crite of Chaldea
Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam
Divine Teacher of Plato
Fohi and Tien of China
Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico
Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids
Hil and Feta of the Mandaites
Holy One of Xaca
Indra of Tibet
Ischy of the island of Formosa
Ixion and Quirinus of Rome
Jao of Nepal
Krishna of India
Mikado of the Sintoos
Odin of the Scandinavians
Osiris and Horus of Egypt
Prometheus of Caucasus
Salivahana of Bermuda
Tammuz of Syria
Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
Wittoba of the Bilingonese
Xamolxis of Thrace
Zoar of the Bonzes
Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia
Zulis, or Zhule of Egypt
Consider the uncanny, improbably strong similarity between the mythical godman “Jesus” and several Eastern godmen which illustrate the great extent to which Christianity owes the East for it’s origins (we’ll just focus on one of them for now: Krishna): [Note that I’m not claiming that Krishna and Jesus are the same person! Only that many attributes of the former were used, consciously or otherwise, in creating the mythical character Jesus]. Krishna:
The second person of the Hindu Trinity, who was bodily incarnated
Jesus and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.
Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.
Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.
His adoptive human father was a carpenter.
A spirit or ghost was their actual father.
Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.
Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.
Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura.
Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.
Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.”
Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.”
Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.”
Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth.
Both were “without sin.”
Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.
They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.”
Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.
Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.
Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners.
Both celebrated a “last supper”.
Both forgave his enemies.
Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Many people witnessed their ascensions into heaven.
“First, it is clearly true that Christianity (as opposed to “Jesus”) was influenced by Eastern thought and beliefs.”
However, he is pulling this thread I started off topic. My OP clearly was asking about Eastern influence on Jesus himself, and not the mythology of the early Christian church. As in Jesus having travelled to the East, or discussed with vistors from the East their faith.
Not true. I certainly agree that the details you list are mythical and are consistant with a common archetype. There is far more to the Jesus story than those elements, however, and I am quite convinced that someone matching at least a significant portion of the remaining details actually existed and that certain of his contemporaries actually believed (or claimed convincingly to believe) that he rose from the dead.
That list of Jesus-Krishna similarities is from Kersey Graves’s book 16 Crucified Saviours. I do not believe his work is currently considered reliable. Here are a couple of non-Christian websites with brief, ballance discussions of his work:
But wise Diogenes, sir, how else but as I’ve discussed above can Eastern thought have any influence on a mythical being like Jesus? Surely an imaginary being cannot be directly influenced by any traditions of thought or belief. For that reason, I believe that my post does not truly veer (or at least veer very far) from the OP. Indeed, the thesis I described is the most likely means by which a reader of the New Testament might imagine the Jesus figure to have some connection with Eastern thought. That is to say, not by some NT suggestion of Jesus’ visit(s) to the East, but rather through the signs, indications, and totems of indirect Eastern influence in the Jesus story rather than in Jesus himself.
Personally I have no doubt that Jesus was exposed to if not actually spent time in the East. Can I prove? Absolutely not.
However, I think it is commomnly known and/or accepted that Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt after Jesus was born and spent several years there if not most of Jesus’ childhood. There was a large Buddhist community in Egypt during that time. Why would Jesus have to go to India or anywhere for that matter in order to be exposed to Eastern philosophy?
Again, I can’t agree. It can only be correctly said that Jesus is not an exact copy of any single mythical godman. The specific combination of mythical elements is different than other combinations, but in the end there is no element that is at all unique in Jesus or Christianity.
You are, of course, far from alone in that belief. Nevertheless, that thesis is overwhelmingly challenged by Occam’s Razor (as well as by many other facts and factors too numerous to bring out here). The notion that the NT’s “Jesus” figure is a composition of many common mythical elements is vastly more parsimonious than your alternative (but commonly held) thesis of an actual historical being who coincidentally matches scores of these common mythical elements.
You are correct, to a point. To be precise, Graves’ claims of 300+ very close similarities between Jesus and Krishna has been beaten back by modern scholars to but a few score. However, those few score stand; they are as valid today as they ever were.
I must also point out that I picked Krishna for my comparison out of convenience, and that I could have done the same or better for many other godmen from the list I gave. Krisha is not the most similar to Jesus among the mythic saviors; I Krishna only as a single, convenient example.
Note that all three of your citations were to sites I already gave prominent positions in my citation lists. ReligiousTolerance.org was foremost among them.
Just a few more notes on the subject. There are supposedly several scrolls that were discovered in the late 19th century that reveal Jesus as having spent time in India. IIRC Baird T. Spalding led a scientific expedition in about 1890 or so with a team of a dozen or so archeologists, linguists, etc. They spent a few years in the mountains in Tibet with the priests there. They translated hundreds of ancient scrolls and found mention of a visitor named Jesus who stayed with them for a few years and then returned home to the west. Spalding returned and stayed for several more years with the priests. He wrote a few books on the subject. If you can get past the existentialism and pay attention to the documentation then it is quite interesting. True…maybe, maybe not. Spalding seemed to be convinced. He spent the rest of his life in this pursuit and he started out a skeptic.
Rumors or myth? Fact or fiction? Who knows, for sure there are plenty of cites backing whatever you want to believe.
BTW as far as Socrates is concerned. It’s not entirely proven that he even existed.
I had a Phl. Prof claim one time that Socrates and Plato were the same guy. Kinda like Cecil and Ed…mm-hmm. Remember you heard it here first. Socrates~Plato = Cecil~Ed one more and we’d have a trinity of our own.
How 'bout… Lynn and ? :eek: anybody wanna take a shot
Falsehoods. That’s all been completely discredited. Now, if only I could remember where…
Free Inquiry? – Earl Doherty’s The Jesus Puzzle? – The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man? – Skeptical Inqruirer?
Sorry, I can’t remember where. I just recall that Spalding’s claims have been more than adequately debunked.
Maybe so, more than likely so. Just an observation added after the fact.
What about Jesus living in Egypt? That been debunked too? Then again, there are those who claim to have debunked HIS entire existence. So, I guess that question is irrelevent. Let’s suppose we accept the premise that Jesus was in fact a real person and was in fact the founder of Christianity.
Could we then also assume it possible that he learned about Eastern Philosophy from the Buddhists that lived in Egypt at the time or do we need to verify that there were any Buddhists in Egypt during the years Christ was there.
and BTW ambushed what of this St. Issa character I’ve read so much about?
Aristotele was a rather unknown figure until 1200s. He became controversial because he meant that our spirit died with the body. He was actually banned right after they rediscovered him
Possible, but unlikely. Plato wrote of Socrates as a contemporary. Other contemporaries would have immediately recognized that it was all fiction. However, Plato may well have put many of his own words in Socrates mouth in his writings.
Not quite true. More he no longer was exalted so much. From the Catholic perspective, Aristitotle was a pre-Christian pagan who likely wasn’t even aware of Judaism. Thus he could be cut some slack on the ground of ignorance, and could hardly be condemned as a heretic. Aristotle wrote a lot more than about things religious. It was these other things which were given credence, and the religious aspects dismissed.
I agree that Socrates was in all likelyhood a real person. Did he do and/or say all of the things Plato gives him credit for? Doubtful…after Socrates’ death it would’ve been a good way for Plato to express his own principles and claim Socrates as the origin. Did Jesus do and say all of the things he is credited with or did the apostles embellish a bit? Seems kinda similar to me. Doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t exist even though we can’t actually prove it one way or the other. just like we can’t prove that Socrates actually lived. Neither left any written word or “proof” of their existence. "Their contemporaries would have immediately recognized that it was all fiction." Hell, people can’t do that even now. Matter of fact, it seems to me that some folks prefer fiction.
One difference: the early Christian writers were preaching about Jesus to people quite far away from where he preached, and many years later. They could have twisted the details a lot. Plato wrote about Socrates to an audience in the same town that Socrates was said to have lived and died in. Less possibility for embellishment. Socrates in the Apology was said to have been tried and convicted on numerous dubious charges, and executed. Thus Plato was claiming Socrates was a reasonably well known public figure.
The Jesus in India stuff and the Jesus/Issa connection has been completely debunked and is not taken seriously at all by acadamia. The alleged manuscripts making reference to Jesus do not exist. The entire thing was a hoax.
The story about Jesus going to to Egypt is found only in Matthew. It’s a fiction designed to compare Jesus to Moses and to force a rather weak fulfillment of “prophecy.”
Matthew has Jesus go to Egypt to avoid Herod’s slaughter of the innocents, an incident which simply never happened. Herod’s crimes and excesses are well documented outside the Bible and there is no record anywhere outside of Matthew of Herod killing babies in Bethlehem.
I have to go out for a short bit. More when I come back.
If you don’t have evidence that there were Buddhists in Egypt, there isn’t much point speculating whether Jesus learnt anything from them. The second assumption does rather depend on the first.
And the evidence that there were Buddhists in Egypt is very flimsy, resting as it does on a disputed passage in a fifth-century Sinhalese source, the Mahavansa. As it happens, the first Western writer to mention Buddhists at all was Clement of Alexandria, writing in the second century, and his comments imply that he thought Buddhists lived only in India. Thus, the one writer living in Egypt at roughly the right time who one might reasonably expect to mention Buddhists living there doesn’t do so.