A quick search on the Internet shows that there is no shortage of speculation that Jesus in the lost years travelled to the East where he would have been exposed to the religious traditions there. And, Jesus wouldn’t necessarily have had to travel. He may have encountered travellers from the East and asked them about their religion.
However, I just don’t see much in Bible where Jesus is saying things that couldn’t have been picked up from Jewish faith, and the local followers of it. Certainly he doesn’t suggest anything truly surprising, such as the transmigration of souls, etc. Can anyone point to things Jesus is recorded as saying that would be hard to explain other than him being influenced by Buddhists, etc.? Also, it seems odd to me that if Jesus had spoken of travelling to the East earlier in his life that this wouldn’t have at least been mentioned in the Bible. I get the feeling why nothing is written of the lost years is that whatever he was doing was just seen as not being worth mentioning. Is there perhaps some apocryphal text that can be dated relatively shortly after the death of Jesus that at least implies he travelled to the East.
Depends on how you define Eastern. In some Bible translations, Job was described as Oriental by Moses. And much of the territory covered by the early Church was Asia Minor and the Middle East.
The speculation that Jesus was influenced by eastern religions comes mostly from books that almost made it into the Bible but didn’t. I’m not an expert, but I think The Gospel of Thomas is one of the major sources for this idea.
The notion that Jesus may have been influenced by Buddhism and/or Hindusim is a popular subject of speculation, and many books have been written about it, particuarly about the “lost years.”
When it comes right down top it, though, there simply is not any compelling evidence to support it. All of the early strata of Christian tradition paints him as a simple Galilean peasant. With the exception of Matthew’s fictional flight to Egypt, here is nothing in any stratum about Jesus leaving Palestine, and there is really nothing in the common sayings tradition which would indicate any distinctive Far Eastern philosophy.
Some of what is attributed to him in Q or in Thomas seems reminiscent of Eastern, sapiential mysticism- and Jesus may indeed have been a mystic (I believe that he was) but the mystic experience is not confined to the Far East and there is nothing in Jesus’ teachings that could not be explained as personal mystic exoerience being filtered through Palestinian Judaism.
Some would argue that there are hints of Hellenistic (particularly Cynic) influences in Jesus’ teachings, but this would not be surprising in a Hellenized region.
It is not only highly unlikely that a Galilean of the artisan class would be well travelled or steeped in exotic philosophical traditions, it is unnecessary to postulate such a background in order to explain Jesus’ ministry.
Is it impossible? No. But It is simply not economical multiply that kind of entia without a good reason.
I have yet to read anything from early Christian writings that specifically mentions Jesus as having travelled to the East. If this had been so, I’d have expected at least some mention of it. The easiest theory to explain why the lost years are lost is that Jesus was just a peasant living in Palestine. It isn’t like if Jesus had travelled to the East that this is something they’d want to cover up.
It’s spelled Zoroastrianism, and all of Judaism was influenced by Zoroastrianism after the Baylonian conquest. I actually don’t even see that much of it in Jesus.
As for Socrates…cite?
Could you give an example of Socratic thought in Jesus?
Maybe you could make an arguement for Socratic method, albeit a weak one. Jesus did occasionally teach by asking questions. I think it would be a stretch to say that conclusively proves Socratic influence, though.
i need some time, but the philosophy of Jesus is somewhat … i would go so far as saying it’s almost an copy of Socrate.
There is no way that the philosophy of Socrate didn’t hit old Israel/Palestine at some time before Jesus lived. Socrate lived some 500-600 BC.
I’ve read from serious sources (som time ago) that christianity was influenced by Zoroastrianism.
As Diogenes the Cynic posted earlier in this thread:
“Some would argue that there are hints of Hellenistic (particularly Cynic) influences in Jesus’ teachings, but this would not be surprising in a Hellenized region.”
I dunno that I see much influence of Jesus by the writings of Socrates/Plato. However, unquestionably Jesus would have had access to those writings. Thus if someone wants to cite parts of the Bible which appear to have been influenced by the ancient Greek philosophers, this would hardly surprise me. What I was getting at in this thread is the possibility of parts of the teachings of Jesus being influenced by Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. I just don’t see that. I will go along with DtC suggesting there is some evidence of mysticism influencing Jesus. However, as DtC points out, mysticism wasn’t confined just to the Far East.
There was plenty of Hellenistic culture in first century Palestine, and presumably, Socrates was known, but I don’t see much specifically Socratic thought in Jesus’ teachings. Socrates was all about challenging presumptions and preconceoived ideas about what constututed moral virtue, and Jesus did some of that, but a lot of Jesus’ core message, (egalitarianism, non-judgement, the “Kingdom of Heaven,” etc.) was not from Socrates at all.
If anything, Jesus mirrored Socrates’ life in ways unrelated to philosophy. Both were lower class artisans (Socrates was a stonemason. Coincidentally, the Greek word tekton which is used to designate Joseph as a carpenter is also the word for stonemason) who attracted admirers by publicly embarrassing sophists. Both were accused of immorality and both were executed. These parallels were definitely not lost on early Greek Christians).
I’ve read from serious sources (som time ago) that christianity was influenced by Zoroastrianism.
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That’s true, but that’s different than rather it influenced Jesus.
Zorasterianism gave us the concept of “good vs. evil” in a cosmic battle, the idea of a good God vs. an evil anti-God (a proto-Satan), a final battle, a day of judgement, and Heaven and Hell.
This ideas had already influenced Judaism when Jesus was alive, so it’s a bit ambiguous as to what constituted a Zoroastrian influence on Jesus and what simply constituted his own Judaic culture.
That’s true, but that’s different than rather it influenced Jesus.
Zorasterianism gave us the concept of “good vs. evil” in a cosmic battle, the idea of a good God vs. an evil anti-God (a proto-Satan), a final battle, a day of judgement, and Heaven and Hell.
This ideas had already influenced Judaism when Jesus was alive, so it’s a bit ambiguous as to what constituted a Zoroastrian influence on Jesus and what simply constituted his own Judaic culture.
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actually, i have a strong feeling that Jesus was influenced by Socrate and Christianity by Plato.
I’m not a christian so i’m no expert, but i have read some of the new Testament over the years. I also know something abaout greek philosophy. I’t was actually when I read about Socrate some 3-4 years ago that i saw all the similareties between Socrate and Jesus.
And the Christian church later went on to revere some of the ancient Greek philosophers. Aristotle was the student of Socrates/Plato, and was all kinds of influential on the Catholic Church, particularly in the Middle Ages. (Socrates never actually wrote anything that survived. Almost all we know about him comes from his student Plato, hence why I refer to Socrates/Plato.)
actually, i have a strong feeling that Jesus was influenced by Socrate and Christianity by Plato.
I’m not a christian so i’m no expert, but i have read some of the new Testament over the years. I also know something abaout greek philosophy. I’t was actually when I read about Socrate some 3-4 years ago that i saw all the similareties between Socrate and Jesus.
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If you’re going to convince me that Jesus was influenced by Socratic thought, you’re going to have to:
Stop calling Socrates “Socrate”; and
Point out where their ideas coincide, but that these same ideas are absent from other thought that probably influenced Jesus, eg various forms of Judaism.
As a broader point, it might be difficult to separate the influence of Eastern religions on Jesus from the influence of Eastern religions on Christianity in the first few centuries AD. Manichaeism and Mithraism, for example, are thought to have had a great influence on Christian theology up until the fall of Rome.
I was referring to what actually Jesus (or early followers) said that can be found in the Bible (including possibly some extant apocryphal texts.) If some Eastern faiths are thought to have had a great influence on Christian theology up until the fall of Rome, then presumably any Eastern influences on Jesus would have survived in the writing. I don’t see much evidence of this in the cannonical texts. One possible explanation is that the Eastern influences weren’t that great, and the mainstream Christians allowed into the Bible only what wasn’t overly Eastern influenced parts of the teachings of Jesus. I don’t see much in the Bible about the teachings of Jesus that couldn’t be explained by him picking up the ideas from Judaism, or independently developing the ideas. Resorting to thinking Jesus must have travelled to Buddhist lands to get these ideas, or perhaps was taught by adherents of Eastern faith he may have met while in ancient Israel, really isn’t necessary.
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Certainly he doesn’t suggest anything truly surprising, such as the transmigration of souls, etc. /quote]
This would actually not be all that surprising either, since the Greeks believed in tranmigration of souls. In the Aenead, Virgil (IIRC) describes a visit to the underworld and a line of souls waiting to be reborn.
Most Greeks didn’t. However, the idea was kicked around by some in that time. Pythagoras of Samos is recorded to have believed in reincarnation. It is suspected that he travelled to the East, or picked the idea up from travellers from there.