Oh I see. I didn’t read that thread the first time it was linked. That thread really taught me something.
Ok, but even if waterboarding is as fully tortorous as other things, it sounds pussy. There really is a perception that waterboarding and the other publicized techniques (like sleep deprivation or being naked) aren’t so bad, and I can see where it comes from.
I dunno. Either the media should explain to everyone how waterboarding works (as graphically as scylla did), or it should believe the common perceptions and take it from there. The media should talk about the full gammot of what’s going on, instead of preferrentially sticking to what is best supported. (Ie, not just things about which the government miraculously left a memo lying around saying “yup we do this.”)
No, justice was not served. We were offered up a few scapegoat people who were just following orders, but not the people who gave the orders and acted as accessories by publicly and legally flacking for the orders.
I am ashamed to say that my republican sister, as recently as yesterday, stated that waterboarding is NOT torture. I asked her to give it a try and then let me know how she felt about it. Of course, she knows she would have the option of calling it off whereas others might not be so sure that they could call it off.
And, Alex Dubinsky, I would much prefer to never be required to choose between waterboarding or having my fingernails pulled out. I would hope that those choices would never be presented to any living human being by any other living human being. As to waterboarding sounding “pussy,” give it a try and get back to us.
If these things had been done by others TO Americans the country would be up in arms demanding blood and vengeance. But, hey, if it’s Americans doing it, then, by definition, it can’t be so bad.
Don’t have time to look it up, sorry, but there was a very good piece in the Guardian (UK) interviewing Lynndie England a few weeks ago. The tone of the piece seemed to be leaning towards her being both a bit thick, and a bit scapegoated…
Hmmm…watch “The admission” by Costa Gavras, about the methods used in Czechoslovakia, from the account of one of the accused in the Prague trials. He admitted to everything, including the most ludicrous accusations, and denounced everybody and his dog, and they never, ever, used “real torture”, only “torture lite”, according to the methods promoted by the KGB. They didn’t hit him even once.
And the acolytes of the Gestapo in Paris were famous for using water boarding, even though they weren’t reluctant to also use other methods.
Those methods aren’t “lite”. It’s not because they don’t break bones that it’s not torture. You’re just too willing to dismiss the comparison out of hand, because…because the CIA use “sweet and nice water boarding” while the KGB or Gestapo agent use “heavy and harsh water boarding” maybe?
The interesting point is that in the thread linked to, ** Scylla ** stated that he would choose having his finger crushed rather than waterboarding. So, you have your answer.
(Even though ** Scylla **, this pussy, didn’t actually try to have his fingers crushed in the interest of science. We should put him at task. )
ETA : I see ** Alex ** has now noticed this point. I still leave this post in case ** Scylla ** would be interested in fighting ignorance.
Yes, I can see it too, but that’s the point of using these tortures. It doesn’t sounds that bad, indeed, unless you’ve already heard/read descriptions of them by victims of less-than-savoury regimes. Since, to top that, people in democracies have a tendency to assume that their own official can’t possibly be as bad as the agents of those unsavoury regimes, they can not only torture, but even admit to it, and almost nobody is shocked. It’s doubly infuriating.
When I heard for the first time that the Bush administration had publicly supported the use of these methods, I was flabbergasted . Not that they would use them, but that they would admit to it, and even support it publicly. I couldn’t believe it, really. And the fact that this went without uproar was truly shocking.
Had I mentioned on this board, when I joined it, that within some years, the USA would secretly detain people, keep them for years without a semblance of due process, resort to torture, that the President would publicly admit to it, and that almost nobody would bat an eye, I would have been laughed out of the thread. Almost every poster would have accepted to bet $ 5,000 that it wouldn’t happen, and I would be rich by now.
But now, people are just perfectly accustomed to the idea, posters defend it, or open threads about how organize trials in the most efficient way without due process. It shows how easy it is for a nation, and for its citizens, to come to agree with what they utterly despised yesterday.
Sometimes, posters laugh at the “slippery slope” argument. But if we accept torture and arbitrary detention now, I have to wonder : what kind of statement would be as outrageous today as stating some years ago that the USA would use torture and arbitrary detention? Crushed fingers and summary execution, maybe? Since what used to be outrageous isn’t any more, why should I assume that what is outrageous today will still be perceived as such tomorrow?
That’s why the course must be reversed. Right now. And without weaselling about what is or is not torture or what is or is not due process.
ETA : and that’s also why I believe that those crimes should be fully investigated and punished. You can’t let such things fly if you want to keep living in a democracy. Tendencies to err away from human decency and the rule of law must be crushed in the bud.
Here is some perspective for you: America has always considered it torture and other civilized countries consider it torture. How’s that for perspective?
Which is one of the reasons *why *they’re being used (another is : they leave absolutely no marks. Total deniability post-factum).
To someone who’s never faced them, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, body constriction (forcing people to assume uncomfortable positions or simply stand for long periods of time) and all other forms of “torture-lite” don’t sound so bad. Sprinkling someone’s face with water ? Pschaw. That factor makes it both easier to allege that they’re OK to the public, and easier for individuals to apply them with a “clear” conscience as well.
And FTR, I’m absolutely horrified by that strappado report, and the fact the avowed perpetrators are being swept under the rug. Forget any pretense of torture-lite, this is downright medieval.
)