Was the Devil ever in hell?

Great Debates
41

Satan, Lucifer, fallen angel, rebel angel, Archfiend, Prince of Darkness, Prince of this world, serpent, Old Serpent, Tempter, Adversary, Antichrist, Common Enemy, Enemy of mankind Diabolus, Father of Lies, evil genie, Shaitan, George W. Bush, Eblis, King of Hell, angel of the bottomless pit, Apollyon, Abaddon, the Foul Fiend, the Devil, the Evil One, Wicked One, Old Nick, cloven hoof, spirit of evil, principle of evil, Angra Mainyu, Ahriman . . .

But remember, Baal, Beelzebub, Asmodean, etc, are different folks, not the Big Nasty Guy.

The one that always got to me, Jab, was the Lucifer=Morningstar connection. I always thought that the Judeo-Xian equation of Satan with the planet Venus was really funny.

Hmmm . . . Goddess of Love, Avatar of Evil.
Love . . . Evil . . .
Love . . . Evil . . .

Guess I’ll take evil. That Venus is just a tramp anyway. :wink:

-andros-

42

Satan,are you saying living in Raleigh is Hell? :slight_smile:

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OC, you have to remember that he thinks that New York City is Heaven. :wink:

Hmmm, methinks we have an interesting plot line developing here, kind of a secular Paradise Lost. Anybody want to have some fun with that one? :slight_smile:

44

jab1, I refer you to my earlier post, in which I paraphrase Isaac Asimov as stating that “Lucifer” was, IIRC, a Babylonian term for their own king, which translated as ‘morning star,’ ‘first light of day,’ something princely like that. It’s not so much that I am saying it, as asking it. Can Asimov’s assertion be independently confirmed?

If so, I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to imagine that Biblical authors, when writing of “Lucifer,” might have been referring to the well-known personage of that time and place called Lucifer. It certainly wouldn’t have been out of character with much else of what made its way into the Bible. Support for this idea (but not proof) might be found in the very passages referring to Lucifer: can they be easily interpreted as non-demonic, historical references, in light of the above assertion? So far, from the single quote found in this thread, I would answer affirmatively. Other references to ‘Lucifer’ might not support this thesis, or might force us to resort to more interpretive theses, much like those that hold John’s writings in Revelations referred, metaphorically but still directly, to ‘Rome and its (anti-Christ) Emperor.’

“Intriguing,” as you say.

As for your final observation…well, I submit that it’s also not much of a stretch of credibility to imagine that the actual meaning of the Biblical authors vis-a-vis Lucifer has been lost, and that current religious personalities like those you list might now interpret those and other passages as best fits their desires and motivations, caring nothing for the truth of the original meaning.

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Where in the Bible does it actually say that Satan rules over Hell? Isn’t he just another one of it’s citizens? He would only have the power of an archangel, nothing near Godlike, anyway. So wherein did our stories come from of a antithesis of God, ruler of Hell?

–Tim

We are the children of the Eighties. We are not the first “lost generation” nor today’s lost generation; in fact, we think we know just where we stand - or are discovering it as we speak.

46

Regarding the similarities between Mithra and Jesus: Of course, my religion teaches that Christianity has been around ever since Adam, so, IMHO, Mithraism is simply a religion that borrowed its theology from B.C.E. Christianity.

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What was Christianity before Christ made his physical appearance in around 4 B.C.?

48

Gaudere, read the Book of Mormon for a well-presented description of B.C.E. Christianity.

49

Aww…Snark, I’m lazy. Not even a leetle hint? What section of the BoM is it in, anyhow?

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ARRRRRGGHHHHH! Every time I try to type in some relevant scriptural references for you, Gaudere, my new ISP (CompuServe) logs me off for “inactivity.” Guess who’s quitting CompuServe?

Suffice it to say that most of the Book of Mormon contains Christian doctrine. You might want to check out 1 Nephi chapters 10-12, for starters. It describes the conception, birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Christ from a perspective of a prophet (Nephi) who lived circa 600 B.C.

I’d type more, but Big Brother CompuServe probably thinks I’m being too “idle,” so this will have to do. :frowning:

51

Thanks, Snark. I am really not up on my Mormon doctrine; I had no idea Jesus was hanging out that early, although I did know He bopped over to America for a time.

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As a matter of fact, Mormons believe that Jesus was the God of the Jews, known in his pre-mortal state as “Jehovah.”

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Snark,Jesus is also considered the God of the Gentiles re new testamnet.BTW,what happened to your e-address??? yours…

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Orangecakes, yes, I know Jesus is the God of the Gentiles. As for my e-mail address, I am going to be cancelling CompuServe sometime soon, so my old AOL address will have to do for now. Sorry about that.

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Snark, I’m still confused about B.C.E. Christianity. Most Christians believe Isaiah (singular or plural) prophesied about Jesus several centuries before His arrival, but that doesn’t mean Christianity existed then.

In which hemisphere did Nephi prophesy - West or East?

56

RTFirefly, Nephi was led away from Jerusalem about 600 B.C.E. with his father’s family by God. They crossed the ocean and settled in the Western hemisphere (the Americas).

As I understand it, all prophets since the world began have testified of Christ. Here’s a quote from Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine:

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Adam and Eve were taught the gospel of Christ as well:

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So all the prophets, prophesied of Christ? Funny - with some of the OT prophets, the quality of the prophecy is rather vague.

So was Nephi prophesying while in Jerusalem? He’s contemporaneous with Jeremiah, according to your dates, but not mentioned in the OT. Given that less than lasting impact even on Judaism, I’m trying to figure out how he could have influenced Mithraism before getting on the boat to the New World.

59

Well, if you’re gonna be an atheist, you might as well provide evidence against two religions at once!

Peruse this little website, if you will:
www.california.com/~rpcman/lucifer.htm

It reviews a book entitled The Pilgrim’s Path by John J. Robinson. Lucifer, it turns out, is a Latin name. How did a Latin name turn up in an ancient Hebrew text?

The scholars who wrote the KJV put it there. And they weren’t using the original Hebrew anyway! They used a translation by St. Jerome, and Jerry made a boo-boo. He translated “Day star, Son of the Dawn” as “Lucifer,” because Jerry wrote in Latin and used a single word to replace a phrase with the same meaning. (Remember, before the printing press, each copy of the Bible was hand-printed, and scholars took every opportunity they could to shorten the text to ease this laborious work.)

And who did “Day star, Son of the Dawn” refer to? The contemporary king of Babylon, Helal, son of Shahar. And he persecuted the children of Israel (during the Babylonian Captivity, I bet).

Now here’s where it gets sticky for the Mormons: Joseph Smith used the name “Lucifer” in the Book of Mormon, even though he claimed to have translated it from the original Isaiah. Had he actually done that, he would have used the phrase “Day star, Son of the Dawn” instead of a Latin word that didn’t appear in the Hebrew text. The author of this web-site says Smith evidently worked from the KJV of the Bible.

And the author of THIS web-site ( www.jesus-is-lord.com/nivsatan.htm )says the NIV is Satanic in origin because it translates both Lucifer and Jesus as “Morning Star,” so WATCH IT! I couldn’t read this whole site, I was laughing too hard.

Just tryin’ to help.

>< DARWIN >
__L___L

60

RTFirefly wrote:

Like the Book of Mormon says, there were many “plain and precious truths” removed from the Bible before it arrived in our hands, either by evil and designing men or by careless scribes.

I didn’t say Nephi influenced Mithraism. I just speculated that since Christianity has been around since Day One, Mithraism could have been derived from the original truths as taught to Adam and passed down to his children.