Early Out -
As far as I can tell, the definition of stealing doesn’t require intent. However, IANAL and perhaps in the legal definition that is a requirement.
That aside, I’ve given them 4 days to initiate the process of returning my money, not 4 days to return my money. There is a difference. They have failed twice in those 4 days to get the process even started. I should find out tomorrow if they failed yet a third time.
Ravenman -
I’ve tried to do things “correctly”. By correctly I mean that my first call was extremely calm and very unemotional. My second, third, fourth and even 5th calls were unemotional. My 6th call was when I became A LOT more aggressive in my dealings with them.
I very easily tolerate mistakes. They happen and we all make them. I have a much shorter fuse when it comes to incompetence.
As I said, I want to give them incentive to return my money. At this point, they really don’t have one and it is pretty obvious their system for handling this is pretty screwed up. This isn’t that complicated a problem. They took my money and need to return it. Do they need proof it is gone? Okay… but at least return my phone calls. I shouldn’t hear that two departments are arguing over this and I damn sure shouldn’t have to escalate this to two supervisors.
Actually, that is a very bad idea. Filing a false police report is a crime in most jurisdictions. You freely acknowledge that Washington Mutual’s electronic draft was purely accidental. Trust me on this, criminal intent is an element of the crime of “theft.” You know full well they haven’t committed any crime. They know they need to get your funds back to you, and have promised to take care of it. You have no reason to believe that they won’t do so within a reasonable time (“right away, this minute!” is not a reasonable demand, unless you’re three years old).
The police will take a very dim view of being pestered by you about this.
Did you actually read all of the previous posts? Especially the part about what ‘reasonable amount of time’ was?
IAACCW (I am a call center worker - not for banks/financial institutions, but I have close friends that work for bank/mortgage company call centers, and the same things that happen in my call center also happens in theirs). The other posters are right - when you’ve got a serious issue like this, the phone just doesn’t cut it. Calls get dropped and there is every possibility that if the person doesn’t like you, your voice, his or her job, boss, or just got up on the wrong side of the bed that a) any notes these people made when you call will never make it into your account’s notes (“whoops - I ‘accidentally’ hit delete before I saved the record, silly me”) or b) if you’re TOO “aggressive”, your account will be flagged as “bad news” or “abusive” and NO ONE that has access to your records will want to do anything help you.
One other option I usually follow when dealing with a recalcitrant financial institution as the final step before I write a registered letter: I don’t know where you’re located, but look on WaMu’s website and see if there is a physical location near you. If there is one within reasonable driving distance, go there and ask to speak to a manager-type (could be an account manager, branch manager, or some other manager). Be extremely nice and pleasant - don’t let your anger show, keep a lighthearted tone, and try to keep smiling the entire time. I’ve found that a face-to-face meeting with someone in authority works very well. Only one time have I had to write a registered letter, and that was mainly because it turned out to be a very complex situation between my bank and another bank that they were in the process of merging with. All the other times, I talked to a manager face-to-face (politely!) and my issue was usually resolved that day or the next.
I’ve always found when dealing with banks that “You catch more flies with honey” works better than “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”.
I work for another large bank. From the bank’s perspective, here’s what I suspect happened:
At your mortgage closing, or later when you signed up to have the automatic payment made, you signed a form called “Authorization for Electronic Debit” or “Authorization for Automated Debit” or something like that. That form documented a separate agreement that allowed WAMU to debit your deposit account and apply the funds to you mortgage. This agreement is entirely separate from your mortgage agreement. This transaction is not in any way dependant on an outstanding balance on your mortgage. As a part of that agreement you agreed to give them adequate notice when you wanted to end the agreement. A time period of from 15 - 30 days is a normal notification period but it was spelled out on the agreement you signed.
This agreement is open-ended because WAMU didn’t know if you would pay your mortgage exactly as scheduled, pay it early or pay it late.
If you didn’t notify them as specified they are not at fault in processing a debit even after you mortgage was paid off.
Clearly they did not “steal your money”. By law, they may have as many 30 days before they are required to return these funds to you after you contact them. Certainly, they have enough time to validate that they actually received the funds (this is not the same as when you see the debit on your account).
Now, having said that, it sounds as though their customer service is abyssmal. I would write a letter to the highest level executive that I could find. Perhaps copy the CEO. You should be complaining about the customer service problems, not the debit.
Early Out -
I didn’t for a second entertain the idea of filing a police report.
It seems obvious I’m being viewed as a somewhat of a raving lunatic hell bent on making unreasonable demands, so I played along with it. I guess I should have used a smiley or something.
My original question, the one I thought would have a factual answer, isn’t being addressed as such. Instead, I’m getting all kinds of helpful advice to “chill out”. Fair enough. I did ask for opinions and I welcome them, to be honest. But I like to be prepared and I just wanted to know what I have to fight this with. Opinions on how to deal with this as well as facts on what I can/cannot demand of them were what I was after.
In my mind, you can firmly ask only so many times before it needs to be escalated and consequences of their incompetence must be voiced (“threats”, for lack of a better word). Three broken promises, three unreturned phone calls and obviously sloppy customer service are enough to send me into that mode. Others seem to feel they can continue telling me “we’ll get it to you tomorrow” for the next 30 days and that would be not only acceptable, but reasonable.
Perhaps there never is a good time to make threats. I would rather avoid all the hassles of just turning to my other options, so I will likely voice the consequences and see if that motivates them further. However, once again, that will require me to know what consequences to which I can hold WaMu. This, once again, is the gist of my question.
So where in this scenario am I out of line:
I called, asked for my money back. They agreed, but then closed the call.
I called again, again asking for my money back. They agreed, but apparently lost the request.
I called again, escalating to a supervisor. Once again, they promised to return my money. Tomorrow I find out if they kept this promise.
Assuming they don’t, my next option will be a registered letter with appropriate notification of what happens if they fail to pay: wherein lies my quandary. What can they be forced to deal with if they fail to pay? I asked here. I’ve been told to chill.
What would you do differently? They have no good reason for not sending me my money.
Did you actually read the original post? Especially the part about them promising to overnight the money to me? Here…
WaMu specified when my money would be returned. It wasn’t a demand, but I’m holding them to their promise. How is that unreasonable?!?!
Dummy-up -
I’ll check my records to see what the electronic debiting agreement says.
Verification is not the question in this case. They have verified they have my funds. That happened with the first call.
There is no dispute over whether or not they owe me this money. We both know they owe it to me, and they are failing to pay it.
Except that “chill out” and “write a letter” are the best factual answers to offer you. Yes, it sucks to be missing the cash, and yes, I think most people can understand your getting pissed off about it, but you indeed are expecting something wildly unreasonable. The truth is, banks have to get confirmation of stuff that happens electronically, and that generally takes several days. I don’t think I’ve ever had a banking problem resolved in less than two weeks, and frankly, I’m not sure I’d want for problems to be resolved any quicker. Fraud avoidance in the system as a whole is worth some inconvenience to me individually.
If that isn’t a good enough reason, I don’t know what will be. If you chill out, you will be much more likely to get your money back in a commercially reasonable fashion and there will be nothing to “fight.”
OxyMoron - wildly unreasonable? See below. I’d really like to know how I’m being unreasonable. Since you aren’t the first to call my expectation unreasonable, I honestly believe I must be blind to something. Clearly my anger at the situation has made me miss something.
Confirmation about the funds being transferred: See earlier posts. They know they have the money. It has been confirmed.
Bosda -
See my third post. Was I really that unclear on what I intend to do at this point?
How many chances would you give them? How many letters would you write?
I apologize to all who have offered advice in this situation, mainly because it seems I’m not listening. In fact, I am. Basically, a letter needs to be written. I get that. It will be done.
Finally, is it unreasonable for me to call up the bank and say, “You will give me my money tomorrow or I’m going to sue you!”. You bet. Couldn’t agree more. THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN!!! I called and they said, “oops! Here, we’ll overnight you a check.” HOW, ON OG’S GREEN EARTH, IS IT THEN UNREASONABLE FOR ME TO EXPECT THE RETURN OF MY MONEY THE NEXT DAY? SOMEONE? ANYONE?
Look at this thread from an OUR POV. From the OP you insist that your money was stolen. You imply a few days wait is intolerable. You want leverage. You want to threaten them with something.
You have no leverage (now). You have nothing to threaten them with (now). Writing a letter today doesn’t get you any leverage today. It simply assures there is documentation that you informed them of the problem an a certain date. In most cases a written statement or complaint is specified in such contracts as the trigger to START the clock running on how long they have to respond or correct the problem. After all, did you record the conversation? How would you expect to prove what transpired if it ever came to that? I can’t say for sure, but it may well be that you have not yet provided them notice of the problems of the problem that a court would accept. It doesn’t matter that a couple of idiot yes-men told you what you wanted to hear. You WILL have leverage if this problem goes on long enough that they violate their own policies, or Federal or state banking laws.
There are two key places to complain about this sort of thing that will almost always get action - contact your state attorney general and the better business bureau. I worked for a large company and we had an entire team of our best customer service reps completely devoted to answering inquiries from AGs and the BBB. Also gives the advantage of adding your complaint to any others who have had similar experiences. If the AG or BBB sees a trend in WaMu’s business practive, they are in for a beating. Note that this will get prompt attention once WaMu gets it, but a few days for you to contact the AG, a few days for them to contact WaMu, a few days for WaMu to get back to them, a few more for the AG to get back to you… you’re gonna have your check from WaMu way before then.
Because lots, and I mean LOTS, of people call in to call centers and claim this sort of thing all the time. Only they’re reading last month’s bill, or they’re making it up, or the automatic debit that they thought went through actually bounced. A rep might have “seen it in the system” but that doesn’t necessarily mean it reconciled. If WaMu coughs up every time before they can verify what happened, then they’re out a lot of money. And WaMu has a lot more reason to wonder if they’ll ever be able to find their errant refund than you are to wonder if WaMu will suddenly disappear into the ether.
All that said, I now feel free to say: chill out. It really hasn’t been that long. You really only have cause to complain about your treatment in a customer service sense: not having phone calls returned, and being lied to (“I don’t have e-mail” sheesh!). It sucks you’re temporarily out the money, and it sucks worse that they have been less than on top of things, but thems the breaks.
One last thing – you might be able to get them to cover any late fees or bounced check fees that were caused as a result of their mistake. If you have any of that happen, keep records and be sure to ask about it, especially if you wind up pursuing the AG or BBB route.
No, they didn’t. They mistakenly debited your account. That’s not theft, as has been explained above.
If you look at your bank’s policy (kindly posted by BOYO JIM). You will see that WaMu reserves the right to take a minimum of ten days to correct an error. This is not uncommon, nor is it out of line with the amount taken by other banks.
You can call them, repeatedly, fax them, repeatedly, and write them letters, repeatedly, until you get your money back. In a nutshell, you can make of yourself a sufficiently large PITA that they will want to solve your problem sooner rather than later. This requires that you find a victim – er, customer service representative – whose life you will politely make a living hell until the situation is fixed. That is the person you contact. Over and over and over again. Do not be rude. You want him or her to want to help you.
That would be the Washington State Department of Financial Institutions and the Better Business Bureau – not the Washington State Attorney General’s Office, which does not deal with consumer complaints and will only direct you to the above agencies. However, since WaMu has not yet violated its own policies for handling errors, your complaint will not get any joy, if it gets a response at all.
Interest? Maybe. But do the math on how much interest you’re entitled to and you will see a number that is beyond laughably small. Late fee? No. As explained above, you have no contractual arrangement with WaMu that allows you to assess them fees. You are not their bank.
Perhaps your view that they are being totally unreasonable stems from not knowing their error policy – that is, not knowing how much time they’ve reserved to themselves to deal with such issues? If you didn’t know they have said “a minimum of 10 days, and maybe up to 45,” then 5 or 6 can seem like a long time, especially when we’re dealing with what may be to you a lot of money. (I know the equivalent of a mortgage payment would be a lot of money to me.) But you are deemed on notice of their error policy, and if you don’t like it, you can bank somewhere else – where you’ll find they have the same, or similar policy anyway.
Or perhaps your anger stems from what you perceive to be poor customer service? Here, I’m with you. I don’t think it’s responsive or professional to fail to return phone calls or to fail to do what you’ve said you will do. The redress for that is to write a complaint letter in which you detail how disappointed you are in how this was handled, and why.
In the meantime, in case this continues to go south on you, keep a call log of who you are talking to and when. Start memorializing the phone calls in follow-up letters to the person whose problem you are going to make this. And try to relax.
Boyo Jim -
You quoted their online user agreement. I do not have an on-line account with them.
Even if that policy applies, the clock started when I first called. They now have 3 days to respond.
igloorex-
You chopped the part of my quote where they promised to pay the money the next day. I don’t think I can make it any clearer. They made a promise, twice, to return the money the next day. Had they told me they needed 10 days to investigate, fine. They didn’t say that. This is a dead serious question: Am I really unreasonable in expecting them to keep their word?
Jodi -
Please tell me how taking money which doesn’t belong to you is not stealing. Again, no definition I’ve seen has required intent.
WaMu waived their right to take 10 days or 20 days or 45 days when they promised to refund the money the next day. Maybe, once again, that is where I’m hung up. I can’t claim they are dragging their feet if they fail to keep two promises and don’t return phone calls?
Am I upset because I didn’t know their policy? No. I’m upset because they have habitually failed to meet their promises.
For the record, the supervisor who promised to call me today to assure me the money would be here tomorrow did not call. Color me surprised.
Actually, I don’t really have nothing. I have proof they took the money. I don’t actually need anything in writing from them. If they want to play around with this, that is okay with me. Court costs are fully recoverable.
Stop looking in a regular dictionary, and look it up in a legal dictionary. “Theft” requires intent. Trust me. IANAL, but I have a degree from one of the top law schools in the country, and was admitted to the D.C. Bar. It doesn’t matter how many times you call this “stealing.” It isn’t.
If your calls to WaMu’s customer service folks are anything like your posts in this thread, I’m beginning to understand why they might be blowing you off.
On preview, I see you’re at it again. Court costs may be recoverable, but the U.S. does not have a strict “loser pays” system - it’s entirely within the judge’s discretion. If the judge thinks you’re a PITA, he will use his discretion to exact his revenge.
Early Out-
Thanks for clearing up the definition of theft for me. Obviously I was wrong to say they stole the money.
On another note, it is still really unclear how I’m being unreasonable. But given the overwhelming sentiment I am, it is obvious I must be. I think I’ll have to ponder that for a bit to see if I can see it. So far, the only thing I can distill from what people have said is that I’m being unreasonable because I expected my money the next day, even when that concept came from WaMu.
I drafted a letter last night stating nothing but facts and the request my money be returned. I have the address for customer relations and it will likely be sent tomorrow. I guess we will see what happens from there.