We ARE A Community, Dammit! or The Secret Origin of Fenris.

The BBQ Pit
1

It’s here because it’s about the Board, but not about the “nuts and bolts” hardware part, that’s why.

There seems to be a lot of discussion about the nature of the board, and one recent post bemoaning the heartlessness of the board has been discussed in something like 4 threads. And it got me thinking…are we really that heartless? Are we, as a board/group savage to new people?

And I thought…No. We’re not. I remember how I got started with the SDMB…

<misty fade out like on so many bad sitcoms>

Way back when, in the olden days when AOL closed the SDMB message board, I was active on alt.fan.cecil-adams. We were concerned that there would be a mass influx of AOLies coming on over to get their fix.

And to a degree, we were right. One of the opening salvos was a “Hi! We’re from AOL. Since we’re going to be sharing this newsgroup, we’ll tell you a few of our conventions.” And the message went on to explain MPSIMS, etc. The “feel” of alt.fan.cecil-adams was GQ with a dash of GD and IMHO back in those days. MPSIMS was a universally loathed concept. The phrase “off charter” was tossed around. Things got ugly.

Finally, Opalcat (I believe) stepped in and suggested (and may have done the work) that there be a new USENET group and put up a RFD (a formal request to create a new newsgroup) for the AOL refugees. misc.facts.straight-dope. Since there were already hard feelings, there was a lot of discussion and resistance to the idea: it would confuse people. Since being in the REC hierarchy is much more desirable “real estate”, we’d lose new members to them. Why did they need a new group anyway? Weren’t we good enough?

Then (again, I think) OpalCat posted a message that always stuck with me. It said (in essence) “Look. We’re a community. We’ve got our own culture. So do you. We clearly clash. The reason we want misc.facts.straight-dope is to have a place where we can enjoy our culture without upsetting you.” and she won: misc.facts.straight-dope was born. Soon after, the SDMB was born and many people from the old AOL board, misc.facts.straight-dope and alt.fan.cecil-adams migrated over.

A while after that, I began to get disenchanted with alt.fan.cecil-adams. A number of regulars had drifted away, trolls were running rampant and the tone had changed into…well…imagine GD on it’s most annoying day. “Guns are bad”/“No they’re not”. “Abortionists are MURDERERS!”/“Anti-choice freak”. And nothing else.

So I migrated over here myself. And it was a big, intimadating place.

So I lurked.

I watched friendships grow. I watched humorous, witty posts and I watched flaming like I’d never seen before. I watched the outpouring of grief when Wally passed away.

And slowly, I joined in. A post of Scylla’s caught my eye and I posted a mild disagreement, waiting for flames. None came. I posted here and there, and wasn’t much noticed.

Zenster was kind enough to take me under his wing in one of his recipe threads and made me feel welcome. I posted that “Origins of the Mods” threads that attracted a lot of attention and here I am.

The point of all this? Opalcat (I think) was right all those years ago.

This is a community. People do find other people who they like and who they dislike.

wring is one of my best buds. Scylla and I have a friendly (I hope! :eek: :slight_smile: ) rivalry, each trying to outdo the other. Guin and I disagree on just about every political issue but have remained friendly. Polycarp and I share so many interests that it’s downright scary . Lynn and I like many of the same books. GoBear and I have similar senses of humor. Hell, Stoid and I buried the hatchet, after a…ahem…very rocky beginning :D. (This list is getting waaaaay too long, so sorry if I didn’t mention your name.)

And it’s like this for every other Doper who joins the community. (And it’s easy to join: just post and don’t be a jerk. That’s it. No dues. No secret passwords, nothing. Just post and don’t be a jerk.)

And once you join in, you’ll gain have friends, rivals, people you don’t like, people you do. Just like in the “real world”. Dopers have gotten married. Dopers have helped other get jobs. And we’re an incredibly compassionate group.

Until you attack the community itself. Then there seems to be a self-defense mode. There’s a thread going on about how someone’s job may be in jeopardy as a result of clicking on a mistaken porn link. Had the tone been “Oh shit! I’m in trouble! Help!”, I assure you that dozens of Dopers would have flocked to him offering suggestions and commiseration. Instead, by posting “You assholes! It’s all your fault!”, his thread got turned into one of the nastier flamefests I’ve seen.

Here’s the thing: the mods have a hard, thankless job. The admins, probably worse. When someone, especially someone who hasn’t put in the effort to join the community, starts attacking something s/he isn’t part of, it’s offensive as hell. Imagine going to Habitat for Humanity (not that I’m comparing us to them) and, while reclining in a lounge chair in the shade, sipping a lemonade and telling the people doing the work that that beam isn’t stained exactly the right color, and that flower bed would look better a foot to the right. It’s possible to discuss the board and it’s policies (I recall one exceptionally interesting and civil discussion by Esprix but if you don’t have any “sweat equity” invested, then your opinion won’t be taken as seriously as if you’ve at least made an effort to join in.

If this sounds likes a “Post counts matter” post, well…to a degree, it is. Imagine getting a new job, or joining a new club and immediately starting out, as you walk in the door, attacking, dismissing and criticizing the people who’ve worked to make the club or office what it is. Of course a “newbie” can have valid points to offer and fresh perspective is often interesting, but at least for me, if the person isn’t a part of the community (and, as you may have heard mentioned elsewhere, it’s an easy community to join…just post and don’t be a jerk), I won’t give their opinion the same weight as I’d give someone I knew, the same way I’d give more weight to a comment by someone who’d worked at in my office for years than I would over someone who started yesterday.

What’s the moral? Dunno. Don’t criticize too much before you contribute? Join in, enjoy yourself, it’s not all that hard to post and you’ll be welcomed with open arms? Fenris’s Secret Origin wasn’t as funny as Uncle Beer’s? I dunno.

But I feel better for having written it. So nyaaah to those who say the Pit has no purpose. :slight_smile:

Fenris

2

Downright scary.

I’d been thinking of something along the same lines – starting with my days with PC-Link (the proto-AOL program for Tandy and IBM-clones, back in the days when half the equipment with modems was Commodores).

Thank you, Fenris.

(And for your comment about our sharing so many interests that it’s scary – read the second paragraph above again. And be very scared. :wink: )

3

I’ll chime in with a hearty, “Hear, hear!” Fenris.
In any group of people there will be likes, dislikes, worries, fears, and a few assholes. We are a society, a community, a group. Most of us here have friends, enemies, rivals, crushes and loyalties.

Sometimes I picture the SDMB as a big cafeteria, crammed full of people all yelling at the top of our lungs. And while I’ve yet to know anyone here that hits that Submit Reply button and thinks, “More glurge down the drain! Hopefully no one will pay attention to me yet again!” there is lots of give and take to how much we contribute here.

I do get tired of the “You suck, the boards suck, this is how it SHOULD be done!” threads by people with a post count of 12 or a registration date of this month. If I could bottle the things I’ve learned here in my year and sell it, I’d make a mint. And, hell, I still feel like a newbie and probably am.

Regardless, my point is, you said a mouthful. A mouthful that’s been on my mind for a few weeks and you put much better than I ever could. Well done.

4

Emphasis mine, of course.

In the vast majority of the kinds of things that inspire small essays like this, “the people” aren’t being attacked, dismissed, or criticized. Instead, The Group is being attacked, etc.

The Group is a picture inside someone’s head, that they have decided is reality. But it’s not. The Group has never been reality. Reality has always and only been individual people, and the network of relationships between them. The Group is a simple reductive fiction. In the cases that inspire great brouhaha, it’s usually a reductio ad absurdum. Sometimes, individual people cling to their picture of The Group, to the extent that it blinds them to the people.

That’s a shame, because they really shouldn’t.

That’s the moral to things that I see.

5

I will be sure to remember that. Thanks for the tip Fenris.:slight_smile:

6

Fenris, great post. Of course, I kinda knew it would be.

I was lurking when Wally passed away, and I was stunned by the outpouring of affection from this community. I have continued to see the SDMB in light of that experience.

I am one of those engaged in that huge flamefest over the “oops, porn pop-ups” link, and I’ll admit that what started it seemed to be as much the attack on the board (it’s all your fault, SBMD) as the assholishness of the poster.

Anyway, loved it Fenris. You are one of the posters I look for when I am trying to decide what threads to open with my slow connection, since I have to be choosy.

7

Fen,

That was downright sweet. Thanks for leading us in the right direction. I still think its true that they who sit on their laurels wear them in the wrong place. A healthy and honest self-examination is good from time to time.

8

Aw, Fenris, I’m touched.

For the record, you happen to be someone I respect tremendously…for a CONSERVATIVE!!!

:stuck_out_tongue:
d&r

9

way to go, fenris, as usual.

[ren and stimpy] i like fenris! he is my friend! i like his autograph! [/ren and stimpy]

10

An absolutely beautiful post, Fenris.

It should go on the front page, or at least Threadspotting.

11

aww, Fenris mi compadre, I am honored indeed. (all joking aside)

I don’t date back to the AOL days, and I spent my first several months here pretty much invisibly;

But I discovered that folks, in general, would take who you are as presented. and, as with so many other things, you get from this place what you’re putting in. Walk in politely, you’re likely to be treated politely. Bust in with a lot of noise and complaints, don’t be surprised when folks ask you why you’d stick around.
However, check out the various forums, they each have a personality of their own. And no where else (including in college) have I found such a wide diversity of opinions (and many displayed articulately, as well). quite the learning experience.

12

I nearly ignored this thread thinking, “Egads, not another discussion on who deserves to be banished and who has or has not been shown the secret handshake!” Nevertheless, I figured, “Fenris normally has something interesting to say,” and thankfully I didn’t pass by without reading. Very well said.

I remember ages ago belonging to a listserv style forum that I would access at a whopping 2400 baud. And from then ‘til now, nothing is new under the sun: trolls are still trolls, there are those whose style renders them immediately likeable and those whose trepidations about not fitting in turn into self fulfilling prophecies, and then there are always a few who learn that negative attention is easier to achieve and takes less work than positive. Any fool can make a big scene at 20 posts, throw themselves a tearful funeral, and invite cremation by flames. Believe it or don’t, I’ve seen flames there that make todays activity seemlike a girlscout marshmallow roast in comparison.

Fitting in takes a bit more work. It takes the ability to stow your self pity when the post you felt was so masterfully worded goes un-remarked upon. You may be called upon to laugh at yourself when you accidentally violate some unwritten code of the board. It’s not so different from the real world actually, and despite occasional misgivings, I’m rather fond of the real world. And SDMB.

13

I jumped feet first into a GD Middle East debate over Israeli/Palestinian policy without knowing how to post links, quote, italicize, preview, or bold. Please, do not try this at home. “Cite?!” still rings in my ears.
Thanks to the folks who helped me with links, interesting websites, and “” stuff. Good post, Fenris.

14

It’s true.

On Sept. 11, after I called my parents and emailed everyone in my address book to tell them I was ok, I logged on to the SDMB. I found a whole thread full of people scared and concerned for one another (and me).

The next day, I needed a lot of support. My sister and six of my friends, including our very own Pucette and Billdo, spent the day with me. Hell, Bill brought a whole chicken and we all had lunch together.

Clearly, these people have become friends in “real life”, but I would not know them or the rest of my Straight Dope peeps if it weren’t for the strength of this community.

15

Well, yeah, but you neglected to mention it was in each other’s heads! :wink:

Well said, all true. Even though there have been some complaining posts from newbies that I agreed with, it’s still disconcerting to have someone start posting for what appears to be the express purpose of complaining. Which smacks of a strange kind of reverse-elitism, as though the previously lurking complainers expect those of us who participate to * entertain * them differently or something. Kindy noivy, ya know?

It’s like the old sibling contract… I can kick my sister’s ass up and down the block, but don’t YOU try it, buster!

stoid

16

Yo Fenris… what will you be having? My treat.
Domestic, imported, your call. I gotcha covered for tonight. :slight_smile:

17

Sorry to disappoint you, doll, but that’s me all over. You should see the glurge that gets the Back button instead of Submit.

I have completely given up on explaining, or even metioning, my relationship with you people to anybody but my oldest daughter, and her only because she’s in the same sorry state with HER message board. You people are my friends. I enjoy your company. I try not to get mad at people who don’t get it because I’ve found that they sometimes do come around but usually just disappear without a trace or a “Where are they now?” thread.

18

Dear Fenris thanks for saying all that. I arrived in January this year and I’ve always thought anyone here then had been here as an established member of the boards for ever. The history of a place you like is always interesting, isn’t it?

I found it very hard when I first arrived here. I’m used, in real life, to having my opinion heard, and to “swaying the room” and here I could put forth terrific arguments or jests and nobody seemed to notice. I finally got it.

My experience is that this is the Big City of messageboards. There are plenty of people around just as opinionated as me, and that’s what drew me in. If I write well, and my offerings make a contribution that hasn’t already been made, or amplify a point, or amuse, that’s enough.

If one contributes for effect, it seems to go wrong.

If you do your best, over a period, people are accepting and supportive and warm. I am grateful to have experienced the most unexpected support through the boards.

And of course, it is only a messageboard. if you don’t get the funny line in first, it really doesn’t matter.

Recently, I’ve seen new posters who arrive, full of juice and pepper, make a strong impression which suddenly turns irritating, get into a fight and storm out of the boards. I’m glad I was smarter when I first arrived, and can still enjoy the flavour of this smart, wise, unlikely and occasionally devastatingly witty joint.

I love youse all

Redboss

19

Amen, Fenris.

You know, I’ve been here for what feels like forever, but I don’t always post. In the summer of '00 I quit posting for about three months. Same with this past summer. Sometimes it just gets to be too much, and unlike the real world, you can leave this place pretty easily. When the big OutThere gets too overwhelming, I can’t always handle this place, so I check out briefly.

But I always, always come back. This place just feels like home. I can always get some comfort, some flirtation, and some laughter here. There have been times when I was absurdly touched and affected by things that happened here (like when Wally died, or on Sept 11 when I realized in the middle of the computer lab, trying to access a news page from campus, that Vix worked in WTC). I can never explain to RL people what this place means to me: that when my aunt died, there were people who have never met me who wept with me, or that when I complained about needing a new scarf but being broke, people offered to buy or send me one. When I am sad, I come here to laugh; when I’m pissed, I can always vent. I can always express myself and have faith that I will be heard.

What can I say? I love this place, and I love that it allows me to experiance so many different sorts of people. I may leave sometimes to regulate my real life, but I always know I can come back and have people say “Hey! We missed you!” This board has changed an awful lot since I joined, but I still cherish it. There are posters here whom I consider family, even if we’ve never met.

I think new posters must realize that the majority of people here are absolutely, completely and totally 100% real, and that they can be real themselves. It’s not about having a gimmick or doing something new or making yourself larger than life. It’s about having the freedom to be yourself, express yourself, and have others respect you for that. It’s about learning all sorts of things you never even thought about before you joined. It’s about people a lot wiser than you giving you incredible advice. That’s what it means to me, anyway.

20

It was Uncle Cecil that brought me to these message boards, but it has been the people that inhabit it that has kept me coming back.

The community here allows the exchange of ideas that I find exciting. If you express your opinion in an intelligent way, it is responded to in a like way.

I see more of the “I overreacted, sorry” than I do people dragging each other into the Pit. There are more rational people here than any other message board I’ve been to.