I agree with you 100%. When you hear a man call another man a woman, it is a degrading insult. And it is a common insult. “Don’t be a fucking woman, what are you a woman?” Not to mention “bitch.” Bitch is an extra special insult between men with all the flavourful goodness of implying that someone is ineffectual just by calling them a female name.
Usually when a woman is called a man, the insult is to her looks. If you overheard someone say “she is mannish” would you think they meant she has a personality trait that is mannish? I think right off the bat most people would think she was just manly looking. If you overheard someone call a man “womanly” you could either think it was a character defect being discussed or that he had full hips, but I would probaby put my money on character defect.
So to be a man is to be ugly but powerful and to be a woman is to be pretty and weak? Most people on this board wouldn’t agree with that but at the same time, most of the world isn’t posting on this board.
pokey, look up any of the threads about whether it is ok for men to cry or not to see whether most people on the board would or would not agree.
I think Susanann is looking at this in a much too simplistic manner. To suggest that tomboy is only a positive comment is incorrect. I agree that it is considered positive to a certain extent, but only as long as you do not push that barrier too far. To be a little tomboyish or to master some “male” task is endearing and Golly-gee-ain’t-she-a-real-trooper! If however said tomboy rejects all or even most “female” tasks, traits, clothing etc then it is rarely considered endearing but rather something that needs to be corrected. I wonder how many tomboys have been forced to wear dresses at one time or another, or have been told that they have reached an age where their behaviour is no longer appropriate.
As for there being such a clear and defined difference between queer and tomboy/sissy, I am sure that is very true for straight kids, but somewhat less so for queer kids. I am in no way saying that this is the case for all or even most, but there are plenty of people who grew up to be gay who were fem/butch kids (even if they grew up to be non-stereotypical queers). I know as a kid that I was damned sure I didn’t want to marry a boy when I grew up, all the stuff girls “had to do” sucked and were not things I wanted to do, therefore how could I be a girl?
It wouldn’t surprise me if people growing up with more rigid gender roles wouldn’t make some sort of connection to don’t want to marry a girl, want to marry a boy, shit, I must be a girl.
I think more feminine boys are made to wear pants more often by their parents at one time or another, than tomboys are forced to wear dresses.
I am talking about young boys and girls before they reach puberty, therefore, they cannot be considered “queer”, they are asexual.
I am being simplistic, because I think the issue is simple. Femininity is degrading, esp if a male expresses it, because femininity is considered “inferior” to masculinity, therefore, most parents are proud of their tomboys, but they are ashamed of sons who express femininity. If men and women and masculinity and femininity were really equal, a feminine boy would not be thought of any differently than a masculine girl, and we would already have equal non-degrading terms for each.
I was born in 1979 and I was called a tomboy from a very young age (I think I remember first hearing it at about age 3). I was also called sir more times than I care to remember.
I stopped wearing dresses or anything pink as soon as I was strong enough to push my mother’s arms away when she came at me with a dress or anything “girly”. I couldn’t talk yet, so I couldn’t say no, but I knew what I wanted. I finally got my mom to agree to have my hair cut short when I was seven and I’ve never had it longer than my earlobes since.
My mom used the term in an affectionate way “oh, you’re such a tomboy” when I’d come to her with some injury from playing football with the neighborhood kids or a tumble off my bike. She always made it sound like I should be proud of the way I was and not worry about what other people thought.
I’ve since adopted the term and made it my own term of power (as my gay friends have adopted the term ‘queer’ for their own).
As for the OP, I have to agree with many of the posters on this board that this isn’t a problem of not having a word to describe a tomgirl, it’s not having equality of the perception of the sexes. Once femininity is not considered weak, we’ll have a word. Check back in the year 4004.
I always thought “light in the loafers” was a relatively mild expression for “girlish” behavior in a man. It doesn’t seem too offensive. I have even heard this said around gay men and they didn’t get offended by it.
But that was my point. It’s an expression that means/implies gay. Not all tomboys become lesbians. Not all effeminate boys are gay, therefore we need a term for them that doesn’t imply that they are.
My just-turned-six year old son has been described by his kindergarten teacher as “empathetic” - “you’re son is the most empathetic boy I’ve met - he is always the first to go to kids who fall down and make sure they are okay, or put himself in other kid’s shoes”.
On Valentine’s Day, he asked why cards have hearts with arrows through them and I told him about Cupid. Later that day, he said:
“Dad you know how that little boy…”
“You mean Cupid?”
“Yeah, Cupid - you know how he shoots you with an arrow and you fall in love with the person sitting next to you?”
“Yeah”
“Well, I think he shot me when I was sitting at Table #1” (in his K class)
“Really - who were you sitting next to?”
“Sinead” (said with an incredibly cute longing in his 6-year-old voice)
[/related anecdote]
So - clearly straight (as it appears now), but sensitive. I am going with empathetic.
The feminists have convinced us that it is not only okay for a girl to do things that have been traditionally ‘boyish’ but also required of girls. A girl who wants to be a house wife is looked down upon by many many women today. As was pointed out it has not always been okay to call a girl a Tomboy. So if Fancyboy is negative today like Tomboy was then, maybe in thirty years it won’t be.
BTW my daughter can do anything ‘she’ wants boyish or girlish its up to her.
The adjective you’re looking for, I believe, is “androgyne.”
The noun form, of course, is “person.”
As for the original question, since my significant and I both engage in some rather cross-gender behavior, “girly-man” and “ya freakin’ pansy” get flung across the breakfast table, computer desk, and couch just about every day, along with “house-wench” (his job) and “bread-whiner” (mine). Unfortunately, these all seem to be pretty personal terms (with the possible exception of “pansy”?) and thus don’t really meet the need here.
I’d be most inclined just to focus on whatever ‘feminine’ characteristic is being displayed- nurturing, artistic, dapper, literary, theatrical, artistic, whatever a word is for being talented at cooking. Tho if we need a general tendency word-
dandy, gentleman, metro, ponce L, I do like ‘British’ (along the same lines- perhaps names that convey these qualities- Niles, Giles, Wesley, Niven).
btw, there is definitely a term- alas, a derogatory one, which is in direct opposite meaning to it’s original intent- “Little Lord Falteroy”, a similar misuse of a character name befell “Uncle Tom”.
When I was little, I had a not-particularly-feminine male friend who hung out with our group of girls. He was the only guy in our neighbourhood, and we were the only people around his age. Since we girls weren’t particularly girly either, and we played baseball and hide-and-seek and played in mud as much as we played with Barbies, he did as well. My mom jokingly called him a marygirl, since he hung out with us for so long.
I didn’t get it until a few years later.
I never really thought of either “tomboy” or (“marygirl” for that matter) as offensive, though I don’t think I’ve ever used either term directed at another person.
My experience growing up as a tomboy is that it’s not neutral and often seen as a negative. Society wants girly-girls. Oh, sure, it’s OK for her to be able to do her own car repairs but she has to be feminine when she does it. It’s OK for her to wear jeans and flannel but she has to harbor a desire to wear formal gowns and spike heels. Considerable effort was exerted to discourage my masculine tendencies. It’s OK for her to have a career but at some point she needs to “grow up” and have a husband and babies. It’s not so bad now that I’ve hit middle age - middle-aged women, and little old ladies, are allowed some eccentricities or maybe society has just given up trying to get me to change.
