It’s the “imminent threat” debate all over again. When people started criticizing the administration for making Iraq sound like a mortal threat, they often used the words “imminent threat” to sum up the administration’s case. When asked why they had mistakenly [heh] said Iraq was an imminent threat, they replied “we never said ‘imminent threat!’” So the whole thing turned into piddling semantics. Rumsfeld got nailed because he did use those exact words once, and Bush said “grave and gathering threat,” but they turned the whole thing into “haha, your point is invalid because we didn’t use the language you said we did.” As if the issue was whether they said “imminent threat,” rather than beating the war drums over and over for months about how dangerous Iraq was because of its weapons and terrorist ties.
This whiny shit is unworthy of a high school debate team or a bad Pit thread, much less this wriggling, embarassing, buck-passing excuse for a United States government. It’s a little more amusing this time, though, because jali’s cite not only shows that Bush has said “stay the course,” but that he’s been saying it for more than three years.
Click here to view a video retrospective of Bush and Tony Snow repeatedly using the exact phrase, “stay the course”, in speech after speech after speech.
But as you know, it is one of the hallmarks of this administration to deny, deny, deny, even in the face of hard evidence. They really do think we’re a nation of morons, and in fact, we proved them right when their tactics won them a second term. I’m so fucking tired of being lied to by this jackass, I could spit. And I’m furious with the goddamn idiots who stuck their fingers in their ears and flat out refused to even acknowledge the myriad lies of this administration (and of Bush even prior to his first term, made while he was still governor of Texas) that were well documented and exposed from the get go. It’s all of them who got us into this mess with this lying sack of shit at the helm of our once-great nation. They ought to be ashamed, but like Bush, are steadfast in digging in their heels and never admitting when they’re wrong. Fuck every last one of them.
I think that’s a good assesment. The thing that irritates me even more than his inability to explain things well, though, is how upset he gets when people ask simple, obvious questions. It’s as if a question is an afront to him rather than attempt to understand what the fuck he’s talking about. I’m going to be real interested in seeing what James Baker recommends-- even if I have little hope that it’ll make any difference in what Bush decides to do.
“No longer”? When did he ever want to be held accountable? He’ll gladly take the credit when things appear to go right (“Mission Accomplished”), but accountability?
This is merely the latest example of my theory that Republicans think voters are a bunch of morons.
There are many different levels to which one can interpret “stay the course.” The most obvious is simply “stay in Iraq, don’t talk about getting out, stick to the mission of stabilizing the country and promoting democracy as long as that takes.” To be fair to Bush, that really seems like what he has meant by the term, since he’s mostly used it in reaction to people calling for us to leave Iraq and so forth. So in that sense, him denying the term now is really him denying the NEW meaning that Democrats have redefined the meme to imply: i.e. doing the exact same things IN Iraq that aren’t working. That clearly seems to be the thrust of his comments.
So, in short, while I agree with John Mace that Bush has no one to blame for getting tripped up in his own terms, is this really so clearly a lie or misrepresentation on his part? Are his objections really so obviously wrong once you strip away the mixed up verbiage? I don’t see it.
Certainly I disagree with him, and certainly this is a gaffe, but I’m not sure it’s much of a gotcha gaffe.
That’s got to be one of the more disingenuous things I’ve ever read from you, Apos. “The course” implies the pathway to the destination, not the destination itself. ISTM that if anyone is trying to reimagine the idiom to mean something other than what it has been understood to mean since men first went down to the sea in ships, it’s not the Dems.
Correct me if I’m wrong, please, but are you not a Navy vet?
In the sense in insincere? But I’m not being insincere.
That’s just not the context in which the term was used. Heck, look at the list of supposedly “daming” quotes: “We will stay the course, we will complete the job in Iraq.”
Give me a break. The “course” is staying IN IRAQ rather than leaving or setting a timetable to leave as some were demanding. That is what the phrase was used in reference to. The destination is whatever lofty goals Bush thinks we’re accomplishing by being there.
Look, I didn’t say that playing fast and loose with language wasn’t going on here, but the fact remains is that that SUBJECT of what “stay the course” refers to has very obviously changed in the midst of this discussion, and you can’t simply pretend that it hasn’t. Admitting that takes most of the serious problems out of Bush’s statements, leaving only the apparent guffaw gaffe.
This certainly is a very interesting study in your own inability to divorce argument from supposed bias or “sides.” Not only am I not a Navy vet, but I’m one of the more vocal Bush and Iraq war critics on SD.
Um, “stay the course” has always been used to mean, essentially, “we’re not making any mistakes.” It has meant, out of the mouths of this administration, that what we’re doing now is the right thing to do, and we’re gonna keep doing it this way no matter how many dissenting generals we have to fire. It has NEVER meant simply “we want a successful outcome.” Never. It’s a phrase commenting on the course–the process–*NOT *the goal.
I agree w/Apos. While it’ll make a snazzy sound bite, “stay the course” always seemed to be followed/contrasted w/ the "they’re the ‘cut-an-runners’ " IOW, “staying the course” meant to stay in Iraq until the ‘job’ was done.
A better tactic for us to trash Bush on would be to compile the set of “I listen to my generals” sound bites followed of course, by the actual sound bites of the generals.
While I think it’s scary that we have the dumbest guy on the planet running the country, I still find it scarier that half the people in the country voted for the dumbest guy on the planet.
The thing that bugs me the most though is that when his term is over he and RumDumsfeld just get to retire and wash their hands of it and go live on their huge ranches while troops with families are going to be stuck over there cleaning up their big fuck-up.
Nice way to shit on the world and walk away from it.
Would you prefer that he stay in office?
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Apos, wring**: Sounds like we’re in agreement. “Stay the course” was a stupid way for Bush to communicate his message, and he shouldn’t be surprised if people read it the wrong way. And labeling the other side “cut and run” was grossly unfair, too, so I can’t shed any tears over Bush’s problems with the phrase he himself chose. Maybe he should have said “finish the job” instead of “stay the course” in the first place. Besides, he has only made the most minor of changes to his tactics over the last few years anyway. It might as well have been that “stay the course” meant plow ahead regardless of the results.
I am amazed (but not, of course, surprised) by the local Bush apologists’ capacity for self-delusion. The phrase “stay the course” was almost always used in reaction to criticism of how the war was being waged, not whether we should finish it. “Pull out now, no matter the cost” has never been the position of any rational human being. So “stay the course” has never been in contrast to “leave now,” but in contrast to “what the fuck are you DOING?”
To reiterate: “Stay the course” has NEVER meant “finish the job,” because almost everyone agrees that the job must be finished. It has only ever meant, “Rummy is doing a heckuva job.”
Period. Anyone who says otherwise is retarded or a liar. Or both.
My mistake. I must be thinking of some other Doper who actually is a Navy vet. My apologies.
I usually approve of efforts to be fair in the reading of people’s words and implications; I don’t feel GWB deserves the consideration from me, and if anyone wants to make the attempt, the least I can do is make it as difficult as I can.
Long answer, yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssss
All he says may be recorded but most people A) don´t have those recordings at hand, B) Have short memory spans, C) Are easily swayed by spin.
Our piratesque mate at the OP has it right, he has little to lose from this and may reap some benefit with the gullible/sheep.
