Web site fraud and World of Warcraft (long ass rant)

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Here’s my view: once people are willing to pay real-world money for virtual points, it creates an incentive so huge that it’s hard to imagine any sort of rule preventing people from accepting that money. Especially people in China who are so poor that many of them work in conditions that most of us would unhesitatingly identify as slavery. Some other method needs to be employed, if any such method would work.

I personally would not pay to play a game that bored me. I get paid for doing things that bore me in real life.
[/QUOTE]

So, the acceptablitiy of any course of action is solely determined by how difficult it is to prevent said action? If it’s too difficult to prevent people from doing something, then there’s nothing wrong with them doing it?

That’s like… anti-ethics.

62

[QUOTE=Miller]
How much thinking does this take? WoW is a competitive game. If Player A cheats by using a levelling service, buying gold, or paying someone to grind for him, he’s going to be much more powerful than Player B, who follows the Terms of Service. When Player A and Player B compete head-to-head, Player A is going to have an unfair advantage, and is going to beat Player B. It’s absolutely no different than hiding an ace up your sleeve while playing poker. It’s fundamentally selfish and dishonest, and (on a very minor level) destructive to other people. Blizzard’s pretty good about cracking down on this sort of thing in WoW, but other MMOs have been rendered unplayable by rampant cheating. It’s not a victimless crime. It fucks up the game for everyone.
[/QUOTE]

In real life, people use their economic advantages to compete on an unequal level. Most folks seem to think that’s OK. (I don’t think it’s OK, I’m a huge evil liberal.) What’s the difference between WoW and real life in this respect?

63

[QUOTE=Miller]
So, the acceptablitiy of any course of action is solely determined by how difficult it is to prevent said action? If it’s too difficult to prevent people from doing something, then there’s nothing wrong with them doing it?

That’s like… anti-ethics.
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say it JUSTIFIED paying people to level up for you. I said making rules was not a method that would be likely to solve the problem. There’s a difference.

64

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Here’s my view: once people are willing to pay real-world money for virtual points, it creates an incentive so huge that it’s hard to imagine any sort of rule preventing people from accepting that money. Especially people in China who are so poor that many of them work in conditions that most of us would unhesitatingly identify as slavery. Some other method needs to be employed, if any such method would work.

I personally would not pay to play a game that bored me. I get paid for doing things that bore me in real life.
[/QUOTE]

I can agree with most of this, but just because some people will find it really hard (and honestly i could never even begin to imagine what the thought process of someone who pays someone else to play a game for them is) doesn’t mean theres something wrong with the game or the rule, it just means some people are fucking stupid. The rule is there mostly to protect the game companies, if you do something like xtismes friend and you get fucked over they can just tell you its not their problem since you were acting outside of the rules. This is not even getting into the huge clusterfuck that would come from a game company acknowledging the real world value of a video game item (you nerfed my sword of noob pwnage??? I PAID 100 bucks for it, you have to compesate me for the difference!!!).

65

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
No dilemma. If I think a game rule is dumb, I am free to think so, and to say so. What’s YOUR dilemma?
[/QUOTE]

This discussion wasn’t about thinking or saying a rule is dumb, its about you defending the breaking of said rule because you think its dumb.

66

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
I don’t believe I ever said I thought it was OK to break the rule. Officially, I’m undecided on the point. You see, I’m thinking about it. Is it a fair rule or is it not? Does it make sense or does it not?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it’s fair, and yes it makes sense.

Gold farmers add gold to the in-game economy, inflating the prices on items for everybody.

Gold farmers monopolize areas in their pursuit of gold, excluding legitimate players from them.

Gold farmers spam the mailboxes and chat channels of players.

Gold farmer make money by buying and selling property that belongs to Blizzard. They created the world (of warcraft), it seems fair that they should have a monopoly on making real money from properties that exist only on their servers.

Gold farmers turn virtual assets into real ones, which opens up a host of legal problems for Blizzard and the government. If I find a sword that I can sell for 200 Gold, which I could then sell for $50, should I be taxed on that? How should Blizzard keep track of it?

Gold farmers go against the spirit of the game. I don’t play to be among bots mindlessly farmer gold and players who have an advantage over me not because of skill or time spent playing, but because they were willing and able to shell out real cash for their gear. WoW is a competitive game. Not only in the actual PvP aspects, but also in what’s called “e-peen”. Swaggering about town with a huge sword while onlooker gawk is part of the appeal. If people don’t earn their e-peen, then that goes away, and it becomes even more pathetic than it already is. :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s a good rule, for both players and company.

67

Regarding honor farming in specific, I don’t know much about how that affects people around you. If there’s a ranking system, then that’s pretty much the definition of a direct effect on other people.

Really, though, if it’s against the freakin’ rules, then don’t do it. I come down squarely on the side of the company in this regard, and present some additional mockery for your amusement. (It’s the blog of an FFXI GM and regards the use of third party software instead of third party services, but it’s the exact same principle. It’s also damned funny.)

68

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
No dilemma. If I think a game rule is dumb, I am free to think so, and to say so. What’s YOUR dilemma?
[/QUOTE]

:confused:

What is this, “I know you are, but what am I”? What does “what’s YOUR dilemma” even mean? I’m very clear on my point, and Digital C at least understood it.

You quite simply said you were undecided on the fact whether it was okay to break a WoW rule. Sounds like a dilemma to me. You are free to think or say a rule is dumb all you want. I’m not contesting your right to do this. However, you’re not allowed, in any game, to break that rule just because you think that it’s dumb. There’s plenty of games and sports with dumb rules. It’s never OK to break them because the game hinges on the fact that both parties agree to the same set of rules and follow them.

69

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
In real life, people use their economic advantages to compete on an unequal level. Most folks seem to think that’s OK. (I don’t think it’s OK, I’m a huge evil liberal.) What’s the difference between WoW and real life in this respect?
[/QUOTE]

How about… one’s WoW, and one’s real life?

70

[additional WoW geekery]

I’m kind of surprised that anyone would be willing to buy honor under the new system.

It used to be impossible for people who didn’t play 18 hours a day to get Rank 14 weapons. The honor is ridiculously easy to get now. My fiance played for 3 - 4 hours a night for a week, and got a Grand Marshal weapon that was an upgrade from his BWL weapon. One of the old Grand Marshals spent 3 months getting to Rank 14 under the old honor system - under the new one he took a 60 mage alt and within a week and a half had the spell dagger, offhand book, and 5/6 of the epic armor.

71

[QUOTE=Miller]
How about… one’s WoW, and one’s real life?
[/QUOTE]

To further expand this, the tenents of “fair play” and “good sportsmanship” should apply. Also people play MMORPGs to escape the worries of RL for a short time, a way to recharge then go back and deal with the problems of the day. They don’t want to encounter real life stressers in a game they play to relax.

72

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
In real life, people use their economic advantages to compete on an unequal level. Most folks seem to think that’s OK. (I don’t think it’s OK, I’m a huge evil liberal.) What’s the difference between WoW and real life in this respect?
[/QUOTE]

Unlike most MMORPGs, you don’t have to click to accept the EULA/TOS to start your life.

73

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
OK, that makes sense. But it’s an awfully predictable thing, don’t you think, that with a hard “grind” required for weapons and such, and relatively wealthy European and American players, that enterprising Asian players wouldn’t hire some poor-as-dirt Asian kids to play 24-7 in shifts to make the money that the wealthier players are willing pay?
[/quote]
Of course it’s predictable that people want to cheat or steal. That’s life. I don’t have to agree with it, and it ruins my fun.

This is not life. It’s a GAME. Sure, I’d love to be free to play all day. I’m not, so I don’t get the best gear. I’d love to be a soccer star, but I’m fat and clumsy. Do I get to have different rules applied to me?

Not everyone can be good at everything. Not everyone can be an all-star chess player. This is not kindergarten and frankly there should be a reward for players who want to PVP a lot. Guess what, there IS, and this guy cheated to get it.

I have absolutely no sympathy to people who want to cheat their way through the system, whether it’s Warcraft or welfare. Nobody deserves a free lunch. You and I have disagreed on this point time and time again.

I’d be disappointed to hear you speaking about another topic you know nothing about, if it wasn’t for the fact that you do it all the time.

This is not about government. It is about the rules of a GAME that you choose to play. The rules of chess or baseball are not arrived at democratically, and neither are the rules of World of Warcraft.

Bullshit. Government affects you whether you choose to be involved or not. There is a huge fucking difference between fighting tyranny and paying to cheat at a game. I’d think that you’d understand that, if you weren’t a total fucking idiot.

Dude, you don’t even play the game! I don’t try to bitch at people who play cricket for cracking down on cheaters. Why are you bitching at World of Warcraft players for their schadenfreude about seeing a cheater get his just desserts?

I didn’t turn in my right to call a spade a spade when I became a moderator.

So, I say again, you are a total fucking idiot trying to dictate terms to a private business about their private game that you have never played and don’t understand, based on your personal beef about capitalist oppression. Tut-tut that if you like.

74

[QUOTE=Oakminster]
Unlike most MMORPGs, you don’t have to click to accept the EULA/TOS to start your life.
[/QUOTE]

Yet.

75

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
In real life, people use their economic advantages to compete on an unequal level. Most folks seem to think that’s OK. (I don’t think it’s OK, I’m a huge evil liberal.) What’s the difference between WoW and real life in this respect?
[/QUOTE]

In real life, people use violence to get what they want, too, but that doesn’t mean you can stab somebody over a game of Monopoly.

Cheating breaks the game. The rules exist to shape the game. Break them and the game breaks – gold inflates badly, or whatever. What’s not to understand about this?

76

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
I’m gonna do you the favor of assuming that you read my post and Bayledemon’s post hastily and carelessly, rather than slowly and without comprehension. If you’ll look at Bayledemon’s post carefully, you will see that there’s no reference in it to the victim cheating at WoW, it was all about how careless and foolish he was. It was indeed a case of blaming the victim. Therefore, my post was not stupid, much less really fucking stupid. It was intelligent and on point. Unlike your post.
[/QUOTE]
Well… let me have another look. Bayledemon was directly replying to a post where it was clearly spelled out that the victim was also breaking the rules. To me that’s plenty clear, but you’re right, Bayledemon never made it part of his post. Ummm… So? Your reply is still the one trying to compare lack of outrage (or straight up glee) for someone getting scammed while also trying to cheat in a game with blaming the victims of rape. Yep, that is still really fucking stupid. There just isn’t a way to make that comparison sound right.

No one is saying that the scammers don’t deserve punishment. They certainly do. It’s just most of us aren’t upset about a bit of instant karma.

Yes, sadly it is predictable that people will be willing to pay real money for in game gold or leveling services. As others have mentioned, part of the reason for Blizzard’s (WoW’s creator) EULA is to try to keep the playing field level. In a news item a few months back, Blizzard posted that they had banned over 70,000 accounts that month for various cheats and hacks. I like that. It makes me feel that they are looking out for me. I don’t feel any remorse for the people with those banned accounts either. Cheating being predictable or not, don’t expect me to feel bad for a person who gets cheated while they are trying to cheat themselves (in context of this game and discussion of course).

You seem to be missing the whole point here (maybe deliberately?). People play these games as an escape from real life. As long as someone has the means to pony up the $15/month subscription fee, the worth of a gamer’s portfolio should be irrelevant. Menocchio’s post covered why cheating is a bad thing in much more detail than my previous post. If you don’t believe those things to be true, we will just have to disagree there.

77

[QUOTE=xtisme]
No…you don’t actually understand. This guy leveled 3 characters to 60 (and had several other alts)…all legit. He decided for the first time to TRY a service that would basically play his character for him in the PvP battle grounds for one day…and lost everything. Its definitely not a good thing he TRIED to do…but you guys are going batshit over board here. I know people who have paid folks to level their characters from level 1 to 60…THOSE folks are more in the category of scorn being heaped here.

Was my friend stupid? Certainly. Did he try and cheat? Yup. And most likely (because of some personal issues he’s having that won’t let him play much for the next month…about the time the expansion will be out) he probably would have used it more if it had worked out. He really wants his epic gear before the expansion and just doesn’t have the time to play as much as he had hoped. Well…now he can’t play at all because he’s totally fucked.

And you guys (and to a lesser degree myself) can feel all smug and superior to him now. WTG! :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT
[/QUOTE]

Eh, I’ve leveled three to 60, my guild is in BWL, and I promise you - cause you said your guildies were also doing it with different services - your mate and his ilk would have been without a guild as well, cause we don’t put up with that crap. So I do understand. Your friend is a cheater who got burned. I find this endlessly amusing. I missed our first kill of Hakkar. I was in neg DKPs for more than a month cause I couldn’t raid. I had to give up my GM status because of work. My guild had way better gear than I did for ages. But it never ever occurred to me that I could get PvP stuff or AD stuff or CC rep by paying one of those stupid services for me, because, you know, I saw the kind of work my guildies put into it, and how good their playstyle is because of it.

And justification that he doesn’t have time, wants his epix, blah blah blah? QQ noob. He cheated, he can’t get GM help, I grin. He wanted to try it, yeah, so? He was a first time offender? Boo hoo. Get epix like the rest of us, don’t cheat. I’m so not perfect, but why PLAY the game if you’re gonna get a leveling service? What fun is your toon if you get PvP rewards without the effort. I repeat, to your friend, QQ.

Want epix? Find a good guild, be a good enough player to get into it. Raid lots. Can’t do that? Inspect me and die a little inside. My gear took hours - no, days - to get. I love the game. Its what we do instead of watch TV. Cheat, and its FTL, as your friend knows.

Karma smiles and I giggle, and run off to play my 6/8 T2 pally - who, yanno, I still have, cause I DON’T CHEAT! (Or, if bored with goodness, my 8/8 T1 lock, or my PvP decked out hordie mage.)

And sorry, this pitting is pathetic and whiny. You’re handwaving now, and its a bit pathetic. Though, if your guild supports this behaviour I can understand why you might think its a bad thing. Would be better if Blizz banned him, IMO.

Cheers,
G

78

[QUOTE=Lissa]
You know, it seems we have a lot of WOW players on this board. Mabye we should start a guild “The Fighters of the Ignorami”.
[/QUOTE]
Heh it was tried when WOW first came out. It was called “The Burning Dog Legion” proved impossible to motivate dopers to cooperate.
“I want alliance characters!”
“I want to play on This other server!”
“I want to do my own thing and not even speak to anyone else!”
“I’m only going to play 1/2 an hour every other wed at 4:30am and going to spend all my other time playing my alts on other servers!”
etc etc. The guild was actually made up of more non-dopers then dopers by the time it collapsed. I couldn’t even give the guild away on this board by the end.

Me? Bitter? Nah never. :stuck_out_tongue:

79

[QUOTE=Miller]
How about… one’s WoW, and one’s real life?
[/QUOTE]

An excellent point. But I had always thought ethical behavior was more important in real life than in a game.

80

[QUOTE=pulykamell]
:confused:

What is this, “I know you are, but what am I”? What does “what’s YOUR dilemma” even mean? I’m very clear on my point, and Digital C at least understood it.

You quite simply said you were undecided on the fact whether it was okay to break a WoW rule. Sounds like a dilemma to me. You are free to think or say a rule is dumb all you want. I’m not contesting your right to do this. However, you’re not allowed, in any game, to break that rule just because you think that it’s dumb. There’s plenty of games and sports with dumb rules. It’s never OK to break them because the game hinges on the fact that both parties agree to the same set of rules and follow them.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve got a card game called “Fizbot” I just have to introduce you to. (Trekkie reference). Point is, if the rules are sufficiently ridiculous, you don’t have to play by them. Prolly the best thing to do is not play, as you suggest. But under some circumstances breaking bad rules might well be OK in my book. The world abounds with people who have been honored for doing so.