OK, all I talked him and he looked at your posts then went and looked at his counter and said you all didn’t look far enough into his site to make a fair judgment and asked for you all to look at this page where he has broken down his “proof” for you all. Take a look and tell me what you all think.
There was/is a cult around here (Hare Krishna’s?) who used to hand out thousands of little books about reincarnation etc. They all stated on the cover, and in the chapter headings, and in the introductory parts of each chapter, that certain weird and wonderful propositions would therein be “proved”. One would read with bated breath, but lo and behold, the proof always consisted of a quotation from some alleged bigwig, asserting that the proposition was true. And that was it.
And the linked page is at about the same level.
The other tactic used is to assert a proposition and say that it is proven because the contrary has not been proven. Which is also a reasonable tactic for “proving” that Mars is composed internally of green cheese.
The proof is shown in the extensive, scientifically documented account of Pam’s surgery. Plus many others very similar to it.
This information is even collaborated by other groups of scientists.
This proof is like gravity, not believing doesn’t make it go away.
There will always be skeptics. There will always be believers.
So what’s new?
Where, specifically?
I found that link to be interesting, however it’s certainly not proof of life after death. Here’s my 2 cents anyway:
I had an “experience” about four years ago, and it was definately life changing. I used to be a staunch athiest who would argue with bible thumpers about anything and everything they might have to say about religion. Where’s the proof, right? Well, after my experience, I began studying religions to try to find the closest match to what I saw and felt. I’m still looking, as none of the organized religions agree closely enough.
Anyway, without getting into it, I wake up with a comforting feeling every day just knowing there’s something else out there. Can I prove it? No. Will I try to convince others to believe? No. It’s a personal feeling that I just know, and would have laughed at had this not happened to me.
There is an easy test.
Ask the guy who runs the site whether he can he the subject of a scientific experiment to verify his assertion. He would have to sign a declaration so you can’t be held responsible for his death.
Yes Lekatt tell us where the proof of this is located at… By the way welcome to the boards.
It’s kind of like being right there under your nose or maybe being too close to the forest to see the trees. You have to miss a lot of the words not to see it.
from the site
Then how do you explain that brain injuries can cause both memory loss and personality changes, just for starters?
As others have stated, there is no proof here. Just the description of some experiences, and a hypothesis. Saying that the alternative hypothesis hasn’t been proven is not proof that your hypothesis is correct.
Wow. That’s all I can say. Just because somebody can conjure up pages and pages of heresay and conjecture, and certain people “claim” to have been the subject of such after-death experiences, doesn’t mean it proves it. Just the fact that he states that the brain is not the source for memory, mind and personality, makes it a complete waste of the precious time we have on this earth to read. Ahh, yes, the brain has nothing to do with memory, personality, or anything else. Tell that to anyone in any medical field, anywhere (in the modern world), and they will laugh in your face. This is simply a case of an individual attempting to make others see their way of thinking, yet this is one of the poorest attempts I have yet seen.
lekatt, your page gives two extensive accounts of the Pam Reynolds experience, but how do we know that you didn’t just make them up yourself? We’d like you to tell us in which medical journals this case is described. Please include the author(s) and date of publication. A link to such an article would be most helpful. We need proof, not hearsay.
Incidentally, you don’t have any backup for this little gem, do you?
The surgeon has written a book on Pam’s surgery. Go to her site to find the details. You can find the links at the bottom of the page. There are more experiences on the site, bottom of the page again. Many questions can be answered by reading the “FAQ” and “WORDS” sections. Please don’t forget to read the more than 150 near death experiences on the site. This information is not new, it hasn’t been written about much in medical journals, too many skeptics. But now the proof is becoming too heavy to be ignored. Read the other scientific studies, bottom of the page.
Doesn’t it seem strange that every culture known to man has believed in some sort of life after death, until the Theory of Evolution came along. Could it be that the theory is faulted and not the whole rest of the world?
My intent is not to “convert” anyone, each must find the path by themselves. Such is the nature of free will.
A book? A book? Don’t make me laugh. Any quack can write a book. Without peer review, Dr Sabom can write anything he likes in his book. You could call yourself “doctor”, write the same book, and get it published. It would carry the same evidentiary weight: none. If his “study” was so groundbreaking, it must have been submitted for peer review in a well known medical journal. That’s what I’m looking for.
Ah, yes, the “conspiracy of the skeptics”. We know that cop-out very well. Proof of life after death would gain its discoverer a Nobel Prize at the very least. Heck, it would be the greatest medical discovery in history. Don’t give us this bull about skeptics supressing the evidence.
As I posted in a thread just last week, most cultures used to believe that demons were the source of illness. Doesn’t change the fact that they were wrong.
From one of your very own links, a review of the book Best Evidence.
About NDEs, the reviewer says, in part:
That’s the best you can come up with?
Humour us, please. Some of us are logic-impaired. How about you present the proof in the following format: “We have observed A, and A implies B, B implies C, C implies D, and so on through Z, and Z implies that there is life after death. Therefore our observations A prove that there is life after death.” That way we can be absolutely sure that no one will have missed or misunderstood anything.
Incidentally, what does the theory of evolution have to do with life after death?
** My fellow Dopers, I am proud to present to you my latest contribution to the field of Ether psychology. I refer to it as out-trolling-the-troll**
Lekatt-My experiments are conducted under controlled conditions. They results are statistically analysed to rule out random chance. Other Ether Scientists running the same experiment will produce the same results.
I *know* that the NCCF(non-corporeal-conciousness-field), what layman refer to as the soul, survives the death of the physical body. The journeys of myself, and many Etherists before me into the 3rd resonance of the Etheric field(level 3 is what you would call the realm of the dead) have proven this. These findings were published in Paradigma. They have been reproduced.
I find not a single fact on your page. What Device did these people use to measure the NCCF? If no Device is used, it is entirely possible that the NCCF never left the body and that the NDE was a mere halucination.
RE-Brain&Mind
As an Ether psychologist, I can tell you that your views on the human brain are akin to claiming that Terra is flat.
Are you familiar with the phrase “ghost in the box”? Philosophers have debated for millenia on the issues of where the “soul” resides in the physical body and the nature of the connection between the two. In the past 200 years, great scientific progress has been made. The mind resides in the brain. This is why lobotomies have such a dramatic effect.
The connection is complex, and I do not yet understand it fully. But, it is there. Two colleagues of mine were grievously injured in battle. A psychotronic-engery-displacment-maser had caused widespread damage throughout their brains. I healed one by using my binary-photon-metaconsciousness-effecter. I worked only on his NCCF, not on his physical brain. Yet, when I had healed his metaconsciousnes(the highest functions of the mind reside in this portion of the NCCF), the physical injury was healed as well. Doctor Halden, an Ether physician, healed the physical damage of our other casualty. Upon examing her patient’s NCCF, I found it to be healed as well. I published these and other findings in Paradigma (May 1998). I have published the results of many experiments on the “The nature, structure and function of the link between the brain and the NCCF” (Paradigma January 99, October 00, February 02). These were peer-reviewed. My findings could be reproduced.
I can detail my procedures and my findings.
Can you?
** My fellow Dopers, I am proud to present to you my latest contribution to the field of Ether psychology. I refer to it as out-trolling-the-troll**
Lekatt-My experiments are conducted under controlled conditions. They results are statistically analysed to rule out random chance. Other Ether Scientists running the same experiment will produce the same results.
I *know* that the NCCF(non-corporeal-conciousness-field), what layman refer to as the soul, survives the death of the physical body. The journeys of myself, and many Etherists before me into the 3rd resonance of the Etheric field(level 3 is what you would call the realm of the dead) have proven this. These findings were published in Paradigma. They have been reproduced.
I find not a single fact on your page. What Device did these people use to measure the NCCF? If no Device is used, it is entirely possible that the NCCF never left the body and that the NDE was a mere halucination.
RE-Brain&Mind
As an Ether psychologist, I can tell you that your views on the human brain are akin to claiming that Terra is flat.
Are you familiar with the phrase “ghost in the box”? Philosophers have debated for millenia on the issues of where the “soul” resides in the physical body and the nature of the connection between the two. In the past 200 years, great scientific progress has been made. The mind resides in the brain. This is why lobotomies have such a dramatic effect.
The connection is complex, and I do not yet understand it fully. But, it is there. Two colleagues of mine were grievously injured in battle. A psychotronic-engery-displacment-maser had caused widespread damage throughout their brains. I healed one by using my binary-photon-metaconsciousness-effecter. I worked only on his NCCF, not on his physical brain. Yet, when I had healed his metaconsciousnes(the highest functions of the mind reside in this portion of the NCCF), the physical injury was healed as well. Doctor Halden, an Ether physician, healed the physical damage of our other casualty. Upon examing her patient’s NCCF, I found it to be healed as well. I published these and other findings in Paradigma (May 1998). I have published the results of many experiments on the “The nature, structure and function of the link between the brain and the NCCF” (Paradigma January 99, October 00, February 02). These were peer-reviewed. My findings could be reproduced.
I can detail my procedures and my findings.
Can you?
Actually, the surgeon who operated on her was Dr. Robert F. Spetzler, who has not written a book on her, nor does he seem to want to be associated with her in any way. Michael Sabom is a doctor, but not the one that was in the room (or the hospital, or even the same state) when she met Jesus in the tunnel. He’s also a big fan of combining spirituality with medicine, much to the chagrin of many of his colleagues. While he claims to have been a skeptic, he’s not exactly what you might call a “hard sell.”
I do find her Wizard of Oz reference quite charming, especially when followed by her narrative of all the relatives that she met on the other side. I kept waiting for her to click her heels and start quoting Dorothy.
In all my reading of NDEs and OBEs, there are indeed similarities, but also large differences at times. So is a picture of heaven in the mind of the beholder, or do we each get our own private heaven?
Hmm, widespread info that gets ignored due to large numbers of skeptics. A search for [“Pam Reynolds” Spetzler] returns exactly four hits. One is a newspaper article, which is little more than a book review, one is a site trying to convert atheists, and two are on Art Bell’s site, who had a show on NASA UFOs the day before and one on the Brown Mountain lights the day before that. At least she’s found her niche. A search for just ther term [“Pam Reynolds”] links to a bunch of sites like your’s and sites pushing the book.
You don’t have to go back too far before Darwin to find folks thinking the world was flat and the universe revolved around the earth. Could it be that I’ll walk past the horizon, fall off the earth, and get swept up by the stars spinning around this flat plane we live on?
My understanding of your intent was to prove life after death, which we’re all waiting for with bated breath. By the way, I found the path all by myself, but it didn’t lead through a tunnel with grammy at the other end.