That’s a fair point. I am not comfortable leaving us open to a hijack–I’d say we need at least 4, possibly 5 Story voters. And I have no problem risking my neck, since I already softclaimed vanilla anyway.
Um…what? No public announcement? No interlude? Weird…that’s different than most DK’s I know.
A Governor scum is usually overpowered by itself, a Governor and Scotsman scum would be waaaay unbalanced. I’m pretty sure we can discount that possibility.
Thoughts on bombing: I’m 100% sure that story is scum of some stripe at this point. No sane townie would claim scum (I’ve run the numbers), and story is not insane. So that means we have to kill him at some point. There’s really no point in waiting. NAF tried to shoot him and failed, meaning he might only be vulnerable to the lynch. Or he might be vulnerable now, now that NAF shot him. He can’t be invulnerable, that’d be unfair. And if he is a bomb…well, we’ll have to take the blow sooner or later.
On the one hand, NAF is right. I remember when I got outed as a wolf Day 2 and tried to sow confusion. We totally shouldn’t listen. And yet…
This is very persuasive. I’m 10 layers of skeptical right now, since this is coming from the mouth of a claimed scum. But–if we get more solid evidence of a 3rd party and if we have evidence that he or she can steal the win, and if I have other suspicions of NAF…we might want to reconsider dismissing the idea.
There are only three reasons story would claim scum:
a) He’s scum, and he thinks he has no way of getting around cucuy’s claim, or
b) He’s scum who benefits from being lynched
c) He’s some sort of third party who benefits from being lynched.
There is no reason for a townie to claim scum. I’d know. I’ve toyed with the idea.
If he is an a or b, we’ll have to lynch him at some point. Clearly. I mean, we could wait for Boozy on the chance that he’s a B, but NAF already failed (he claims), and I don’t want to wait, since we don’t know Story’s power–maybe he wants us to wait so he can pull off some oneshot power or something. It’s a reasonable possibility.
As for c, no self-respecting mod would put in a win-stealing jester-type role without telling any of the players. So we can safely discount that. Which means in the worst case scenario, Story’s lynch does nothing but deprive us of a lynch–we don’t even lose a townie. And given that leaving him alive runs the risk of him messing with our heads/unleashing a oneshot power, I think it’s more than worth the risk to lynch him now.
Because if he’s lying, we lynch him toMorrow. One town for one scum is a good trade. And if he’s lying and town…well, he actively hurt his own team, that’s his fault, not ours.
Missed this part.
Yes, that is exactly the line of reasoning. What’s wrong with it? Do you think one town for one scum is a bad trade? Do you think storyteller is town despite his scum claim?
I know. And on top of that the mod has told me that I am not allowed to quote the PMs in the exchange. So I get a special rule made for me too. Tons of fun. I wonder if Maha will confirm that I am not allowed to quote the PMs I sent him today? Probably not, but it can’t hurt to ask.
Modly one, can you confirm the above?
This is my thinking. I doubt he is a Jester, I highly suspect he is a scum scotsman and is now vulnerable to lynching which he would not have been before (hence the claim, he was trying to get us to mislynch). That said, if he is a bomb, better he go off now than at endgame.
Also, I want to try to answer Meeko because I actually do think there is a good mafia player in there, he is just coming at the game from the wrong headspace.
We have no proof. At the moment we need no proof. If Cucuy is lying and story is not scum (highly improbable, but what the heck let’s entertain the hypothetical), he just gave town a gift. On the heels of a scum lynch town can afford to mislynch once and then we would know that Cucuy was scum. A scum for town trade in this situation is a net gain for town. I don’t remember the exact math but I think each scum is worth something like 3 townies in terms of lynches. It’s a good deal for town unless we are at lylo. That’s all you really need to know at this point about the cop claim, the odds and the favorability of the trade. That’s why the experienced players all jumped on it.
We can and we should entertain they why would story claim question. I entertained it and decided to try to Day kill him because I thought I might be able to avert a bomb disaster. Now it doesn’t matter if you belive me about my claim or not, Story needs to be lynched under any circumstances. If he is a game ending jester…well it’s still early in the game and I will know not to play in any of this mods games in the future. Lesson learned. If he is any other kind of jester or if he is a scotsman, or a bomb, or even town he needs to be lynched toDay. There isn’t really any other option that town has that doesn’t hurt town more in the long run.
I don’t follow. A Story lynch answer some important questions about the fundamentals of the game. Being confirmed has nothing to do with it. Mafia is a game of uncertainty and calculated risks. Only making moves you are certain of is a good way to lose.
You can, and if you do you will almost certainly get caught and lynched. If you did it for no reason you will likely not be allowed to play again. There is a certain amount of being a good sport that is involved in playing these games. We have to trust that no one is going to be an outright asshole. (not that you would actually do that, I’m just saying)
Lots of reasons. We have no reason to believe that there aren’t multiple factions. What was the town win condition again? (sorry, I didn’t get one and I don’t remember it) But beyond multiple factions it could just be game balance. When I create games I generally try to have a few full power roles in the game as possible. It allows for more flexible balancing and I believe that weak roles are actually more fun to play then full power roles.
I think it’s far too early in the Day to say that.
snip
Fair enough. That’s not a bad line of reasoning.
Most games have third parties in them. Most of the time it’s a mistake for town to care until midgame and a couple of lynched scum. After we lynch story we can go hunting third party players.
[quote=“Meeko, post:818, topic:504801”]
**
In reverse order:**
Not mindlessly. What you are missing is that a lot of us know the cost benefit of the trade if it turns out the Cucuy is lying. And yes, in the early game it is generally good advice to give claimed power roles the benefit of the doubt. They generally do not make it to endgame if they are lying. (occasionally they do, but that is the exception not the rule)
This is backtracking in your thinking it through abilities. It’s stuff like this that makes me wonder if you aren’t actually scum and playing up some stuff.
Yup. We need to vote story either way. See above.
Three questions. 1)What is the “mafia definition” of lying? 2)What is your definition? 3)Why must Cucuy be lying?
Again, why must there be lying going on? I agree that there is probably some lying going on, but why must it be so?
Also, as to the question you asked in the Night that I keep forgetting to answer. Skimming is considered a scum tell because once upon a time Storyteller realised that scum don’t need to pay attention to the game the way that town do. So skimming is something scum will do by reflex. Unfortunately, town is often lazy and skims long posts. I bet not more than half the players in the game will read this whole post, it’s the way of the world. People are lazy. Skimming is a good scum tell if you know what kind of skimming you are looking for, but generally it’s a null tell because it isn’t pro scum, it is simply anti town. And rule number 1 of mafia is that every townie will do something VERY anti town at some point in the game, generally they will do multiple somethings that are anti town. Townies rarely do things that are pro scum though. Pro scum and anti town are not the same thing, and learning to consistantly tell the difference is one of the greatest challenges in playing mafia.
I can’t really fight against the third party thing. I’m not, I am town. I have it verified in a PM from the mod (which I may or may not be allowed to quote, I am not totally sure.) I didn’t get a win condition, like several other claimed town power roles. I was the first to mention it (I think). If it makes you feel any better, I am powerful enough (and scum now know it) that it is highly unlikely I will make it to endgame.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910;11458648
Remember, Boozy can always shoot me toNight. If he’s not lying, I mean.[/QUOTE]
Come on, story. Even when I’ve been scum, I’ve never lied in these games.
But you, my friend, are no good, here.
** vote: storyteller **
If people are more comfortable with it, by the way, I’m happy to change my vote to no-lynch and shoot story toNight, (remember, there is a 25% chance I’ll shoot myself in the foot. But you’ll know it Tomorrow, and we can lynch him then) if that puts him out of Jester status
Just a thought on LYLO: we’re really only on our second day, in terms of game balancing: we didn’t lose a townie last night, and did lose a scum player, which should effectively set us back a day in terms of the game.
If lynching a guaranteed scum/PFK kills us, here on Day Three with over 20 players, we can all just mark it off on on our game calenders as an unfair game.
I have a theory.
Maybe story is immune to vig kill. It would make sense. Claimed Scum, but with a mysterious edge to it. We allegedly waste a DK on him, story says “woops how did that happen? i have extra powerz.”. It’s possible he is baiting us into wasting another shot on him.
I say we lynch, but we keep important roles out of the vote on story. My vote stands. Boozy, a 1 shot vig (or is that a 0.75 shot vig?) is useful - unvote, and only vote for story if Town needs you to.
AS for why, acknowledging that there’s probably a reason Story wants to be lynched, I am still voting for him:
If Story is a bomber or whatever with vengeance, I’m claimed vanilla. It will not cause town terrible amounts of consternation if I die when a scum dies too
If there is a win-stealing Jester in a closed game, the mod is a Gastard and I can safely ignore lynching them because I don’t care about their “win”.
If Story is a recruiting Jester, Story would have already subbed out, since he hates recruitment mechanics like Bill Clinton hates not getting blowjobs.
So that’s where I stand on it. I don’t want to see power roles voting for Story unless they have to, personally, on the off chance he’s got some kinda vengeance power.
I don’t necessarily have any thoughts on whether or not he’s lying about third parties.
Meeko, the typical strategy is to believe claimed investigators until they’re proven wrong or counterclaimed, or until the odds work out that the claimed group they’re building is worth more if truly confirmed by the investigator’s death reveal. In particular, even though cucey has claimed he’s got a chance of wrong investigatory results, if he gets us to lynch a townie claiming that he investigated them as scum we should kill him anyway to be sure.
Just so people know, my ability to access the Internet is going to be reduced for a week starting this afternoon. My fiancee is coming across the North Sea, but only for a week.
This means that not only will I have someone else to take time away from surfing, but there will be times when she wants to use my computer. I’ll still be paying attention, but maybe not as assiduously as I would like.
On Cucuy : I’m still uneasy that he cannot tell us whether he gets false results or no results on a failure; if Mahaloth won’t tell him then fine, but we’ll need to be aware of the possibility that any given result could be false when assessing his reports and deciding whether to act on them. It’s probable that the failure chance reflects the possibility of the message going astray, but I’d still like to know.
On Storyteller.
Given that, in past games, Storyteller has grumped about Townies-who-lie, I don’t believe he would have claimed CT if he were Town aligned. So he’s not. Either he’s a CT, or a third party player with an agenda, or both.
The one thing that worries me, though, is this. If Storyteller is a CT with an agenda, isn’t it possible that Cucuy is also CT, and bussing Storyteller to forward that agenda? If so, lynching Storyteller is playing their game. On the other hand, we can’t afford to have ourselves go paranoid over this, and a CT in the hand needs to be carefully pulled lest we get infected.
Vote Storyteller
If he is a bomb of some kind, my power is weak enough that it can be risked.
This thing took on a life of it’s own gang. NAF, please read. Others can read if they want… but, to do my part here
[OOG]
“Wrong Headspace”. At once, I am not sure I know the full meaning of this word, even though I heard it once said about my ex-girlfriend. [FTR, there are people that are more “meeko”, than meeko.] But, at that same time, I am sure I know what it means, and I can relate to it. [I can’t find a definition for it, either.]
But, Yes, reading the LOST forbidden thread after I was NK’d in that game, while the game was still going on (This is my third Mafia game, and my first game, Glyph, I was vote switched lynched to end the game.) I was able to see commentary on an active game that I had been in. One user in that the spoiled thread, **understood me perfectly. ** He then offered his reason. All of that to say this ::
**
I have ADD / ADHD ** (I keep hearing different reports on if they are the same thing or not, but trust me, there have been very, very, rare times, where I have surprised myself, at how hyperactive I was.)
If this gets at the wrong “headspace” you talk about NAF, we can end here. But, I could keep going.
I have a Habit of Overthinking things. I have a habit of getting overwhelmed, and worrying about things that don’t need to be worried about. Case in point:
Sudoku.
I do have a point here, and It is the most recent instance I have, outside of Mafia. Hopefully you will allow me here, and hopefully, a few of you play sudoku, so that my example is not as obtuse.
On easy puzzles, and a few puzzles of the next difficulty higher, I have noticed something annoying in my play.
I will conclude that a given space MUST hold a specific number. That would be the great thing that it needs to be, if it wasn’t a given. Yes. I spend time in sudoku concluding numbers that were alreaddy given to me. But, FWIW, I know for a fact that they weren’t lying to me. :rolleyes:
I get caught up in trying to solve something, and I go all out on it. I don’t stop to ask if I really need to solve it, or if indeed, it’s not already solved. [Slightly different things.]
In Mafia now, I routinely internally ask myself why X can, or can’t happen in this game. This gets at my asking the questions (In this exact game, IIRC) about how Scum come to find out who they are Scum with, AND why I felt as if I was PISing even though I KNOW I am Town.
It is hard to elaborate further. But, to put different words on it : I get waist deep in an idea, and I have to pull myself out of it, only after thinking it through.
In LOST, for example, I actually had to really think about why the game NK’d Chronos. IIRC, he was a power Role, and it was more or less assumed that everyone else was vanilla. I honestly thought it didn’t matter to Scum, as townie is townie is townie, Scum only win with reduced townie… why not just pick a townie at (more or less) random? It actually took me quite a bit longer to conclude, for myself, that yes, offing a Power Town is THAT much better than a vanilla town.
Then again, I was a one shot vig in that game, and I used my power night one. I was CERTAIN that I would die that night*. I wasn’t but, I did have the game thinking that I had more bullets. I guess in my mind, I assumed that Scum somehow knew more than they did. I guess, I assumed that in terms of game math, only the quantity mattered, not the quality.
*And now that I write it out, my entire SNAFU with my one-shot vig also gets at my headspace (I would guess). LOST gave powers to characters that more or less matched their TV show counterparts. I claimed as Sawyer, on Day 1 no less, and I figured that my name alone, in the middle of the discussion that Name WOULD equate to relative power role, would indicate me as packing heat.
My Claim, thankfully for town, got 5 or so votes off of me first day (Some things have yet to change.)
But, I felt that it came at a cost.
KNOWING that I was going to die that night, having told the game that I was Sawyer, and lo and behold, I have a gun ((Ok, the implication was there)) I felt that I had cheated death by the noose, I HAD to use my nightchoice that night, because I did not want to die, not having it being used.
I made an educated guess on a sample of the games population, and randomness be damned, I came up with the same name time and time again.
And he was town.
Anyway. I’m not sure what this has become, but, it is how I think. and FWIW, I think I agree with you NAF, I do have a different headspace on this game. Hopefully, that will be a boon to the game, once I can harness it.
/OOG
**
But,
Oh miserable of happy!
NAF: You are the one that apparently tried to DK Story?!
I’m not trying to be an ass, nor am I trying to skim on puprose. **
**But, where on earth did you claim that you Tried to Day Vig Story?! I can’t find it, and I’m not sure I know how far back in the thread to look. **
NETA:
The entire One for One Trade makes perfect sense to me. Especially since we offed a Scum yesterday.
I still am not going to vote Story thought, … Just don’t feel good about it.
BUT
**
UNVOTE CUCUY**
Sounds reasonable
** unvote: storyteller **
For the record this is basically why I’m keeping my vote on Joey. I don’t have any other leads and I think Story is going to be a bomb.
Just wanted to get my reasons out there.