There is a minimally-violent way–“commotio cordis.” A relatively minor hit to the sternum at exactly the wrong moment during the heart’s cycle can cause it to stop. I’m not saying that it is likely (especially since apparently it is mostly in people younger than Warmbier) but it is in theory possible that some bit of rough but not utterly brutal handling caused his heart to stop.
My feelings aren’t really mixed, here. I just feel terrible for the guy and his family.
Keep in mind that this thread was started when he was first detained.
I have a family member with a troubled child who does stupid stuff, and she always trots out an excuse like that. “Her friends/grandmother/whoever do stupid things too.” I don’t buy it.
If you could drop the last four words I would agree with you. (The touring company brings money to North Korea, and intimidating them isn’t diplomatically useful, while intimidating America apparently is.)
Here is a University of Delaware professor who feels he got exactly what he deserved:
I disagree. While I feel he was extremely stupid for going to North Korea, the final result was a tragedy.
@ Kimera757:
I did say this doesn’t absolve him of his idiocy, so I’m not using it as an excuse for his behavior, I’m just saying it may provide some context for his actions. The company isn’t accountable for how their travelers behave but I do feel the tour guide has a responsibility to not act like a drunken frat boy not only for the purpose of setting an example but also for the travelers’ safety. Some of his antics have nearly gotten a whole group into trouble.
And yeah, it’s more accurate to say Otto may have been an innocent scapegoat used to “punish” the US, but I initially thought he was singled out to send the tour company a message about what their silly antics may cause. But I just remembered the tour guide/founder of the company is British so that would be kinda pointless. Now I wonder if Otto was the only American national on that fateful trip. If so, it really increases the likelihood that he was just guilty of only going on that trip in the first place.
@ PastTense:
Did that person seriously insinuate that Otto was a rapist and a junkie purely on the fact that he was a rich, white male? How does she sound any better than those who generalize minorities in the same manner?
Apologies for the format of this reply, the quote function seems broken on my end.
I note the New York “Yiddish” papers are reporting the young man was a Jew. I have no idea if this is true.
This video has a great analysis of Warmbier’s “confession”.
From Wikipedia:
“His mother is of Jewish descent.”
and
“He was a brother of the Theta Chi fraternity, and was active in the Hillel Jewish campus organization at the University of Virginia. He had visited Israel in a Birthright Israel heritage trip for young Jewish adults, a visit he described in a blog post.”
I doubt he was being persecuted based on his religion though. It’s all the same to North Korea.
Interesting link. It makes me suspect that he was innocent - or at least innocent of what he was accused of.
I wonder if there is any forensic analysis of the video that shows him taking the banner. It’s very suspect to me, because the “perp” removes the banner and sets it down on the floor. No hesitation, no attempt fold it, roll it up, no attempt to really TAKE it. And the person handles the banner almost reverently. And It seems like the shadowy figure may be shorter than Warmbier, although I don’t have a real basis to judge.
And the confession was obviously scripted. I don’t for a minute believe that the act was commissioned by his church and planned in advance of his trip. I always felt that if he did it it was an impulsive act, possibly fueled by alcohol. I guess I thought maybe he glimpsed the banner on the far side of a “staff-only” door. But according to the linked video, the entire floor was “staff only” and the guest elevators don’t stop on that floor.
So he would have had to work out how to gain access to that floor, which doesn’t seem to fit with “drunken impulse”.
I really think something else was going on, I’m just not sure what.
Well, maybe in this case but not necessarily in general. I performed some amazingly intricate mischief while under the influence back in my salad days.
Well, you got your wish and he got good and fucked. Why don’t you write this in a card and send it to his family in Cincinnati?
“Five years planting apple trees,” is pretty far from, “beaten into a year-long coma he never recovers from.”
Probably not. But North Korea is positively on the Palestinian side in the conflict with Israel, which it labels ‘imperialist’. Also though I know of no survey of NK public feelings about Jews, South Korea scores surprisingly high on antisemitism in ADL’s global survey, 53% v 9% in the US, 8% in the UK, 37% in France, 20% China, 23% Japan. Part of the might be in how outspoken people are about their harsh opinions of others in different countries, but still interesting. And to the extent it has anything to do with the element of Korean culture that remains common between North and South (one theory might be that diaspora Koreans often find themselves in competition with Jews in the US among ‘over achieving minorities’ and that competitive tension feeds back through family ties to create negative ROK attitudes toward Jews, which wouldn’t apply to NK).
http://global100.adl.org/
“Fuck this guy” means “fuck this guy.” When you’re talking about leaving someone to his fate in the hands of a cruel and brutal regime, this pitch me was perfectly foreseeable. So if you say he deserves to be left in the hands of that system, this is what you’re saying he deserves.
Diplomatically awkward, to be sure, but I can’t fault the parents for timing their lawsuit to maximize what little leverage they have.
Here’s CNN’s coverage of the parents’ lawsuit: https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/26/politics/otto-warmbier-family-lawsuit-north-korea/index.html
There are very few people involved with this “story” at any stage, who have strong reasons or incentives to tell the truth about what happened. Almost everybody with any connection has reason to be embarrassed or humiliated or suspicious or protective or whatever other things that could make them want the truth to remain hidden. Reporters have essentially no credible sources to rely on, regarding the main question of “what happened over there anyway”.
What leverage would that be? Under what scenario could North Korea ever be made to pay a dime?