Yeah, but the Bible also says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17), so this belief is nothing more than cheap grace.
Catholics do not worship Mary, any more than Fundamentalists worship Satan. (Given the inordinate amount of time they spend talking about him and “binding” him and his demons, one wonders.)
You know, on that day, there will be many who cry “Lord, Lord!”, but he will say “I never knew you, depart from me.” (Matthew 7:21-23)
I’ve never read a real Chick Tract (except for the internet versions). I’ve never held one in my hands. I feel so alone!
Hold me!
Interesting point on this one…
At the end of that tract he tells readers to look at 1st John 5:7, and if the passage there differs from the one he wrote (KJV), then your bible is “corrupted” or “wrong”. Well, it’s a trick. Clever, clever Jack. The line in 1 John 5:7 (KJV) is included in 1 John 5:8 (RSV). The trick is that 5:8 in the KJV is eliminated from RSV, and 5:6 KJV is split into two lines, so that total number of lines is the same. Jack might split hairs, but the RSV capitalizes “Spirit” where the KJV doesn’t, so retaining the gist of the moved line as I understand it.
Anyway, typical Chick tactics.
I’m well aware that there will be those on that day to whom the Lord will say, “I never knew you”. They cast out demons, did many wonderful works (works didn’t save them),etc. These are people who did all kinds of works, lived as good people, yet they never took that step and asked Jesus into their hearts as Savior. You can have mental belief in God and yet never actually accept His provision for salvation. Like all these people who have NDE’s and think that everyone is going to be blissfully welcomed into heaven no matter what. They believe it because of what some angel of light tells them. Anyone who wishes to check out the christian view of nde’s can check out www.salinabible.com or www.watchman.org/anglight.htm. Or just use a search engine and type in christian view of near death experiences. And you are right faith without works is dead, but we aren’t saved by works. Works should be the result of getting saved, they’re not the means of getting saved. Ephesians 2:8-9
See, this where we can clear up some ignorance. Catholics, too, beleive that all you need to be saved is to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.
Catholics don’t worship Mary or saints. They are good examples of exemplary devotion to God, that’s all.
Catholics do not believe you have to be subject to the Pope to be saved. The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church and the Bishop of Rome in an unbroken line all the way back to St. Peter, who the Lord laid hands on him and said, “Upon this rock I will build my church.” Further, the Church says you don’t have to be Catholic to be saved, as has already been pointed out in this thread.
As for priests forgiving sins, the Church believes that Jesus passed on His authority to forgive sins to His disciples, to whom all Catholic priests are connected through the sacrament of holy orders. If you follow the succession of the laying of hands, you’ll find it goes directly, priest after priest after priest, to Jesus Himself.
Sure, there are areas where Protestants and Catholics can disagree–the number and nature of the sacraments, whether the communion wafer contains the Real Presence or is merely symbolic, the nature of the priestly office–but these should be based on facts, and not on Jack Chick’s paranoid fantasies.
Goodness knows I am no fan of Christianity, but I’ll criticize it based on what it is, and not on what it ain’t, ya dig?
Well, if Islam is right, you’re going to hell because you worshipped Jesus, who was only God’s prophet, and not God Himself. According the the Holy Qu’ran, God’s full message as revealed to the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), you should not worship only God.
Now of course, a Buddhist would say that you need to destroy worldly desire and the illusions of the flesh, and practice the Eightfold Path to attain enlightenment so you can get off the wheel of rebirth.
A Hindu will urge you to meditate and practice virtue, so you can work off your negative karma and be reborn in a higher level in your next incarnation as your soul continues its progress to attaining union with the Great Soul.
See, His4Ever, the world is bigger than you think it is, and you’ll find that there are many other worldviews that are just as valid as yours.
Didn’t you ever see Dr. Who?? It’s the tartis, man!
Fair enough.
But the issue with Jack Chick isn’t that he disagrees with Catholicism, but that he lies about Catholicism. Or at the very least, he’s guilty of repeating lies about Catholicism. Chick claims, f’rinstance, that Catholics “worship” Mary (they don’t), and that the places in Catholic law where thus-and-such practice is classified as “anathema” are saying that anyone who engages in said practice must be executed (that’s not at all what “anathema” means).
Grimpixie, the problem is that once someone has shown that they’re willing to tell outright lies (and big bold ones, not ‘calling in sick’ to work sort of stuff), you have to wonder what else they’re lying about. Chick spouts off things that are blatantly untrue (say, pretty much everything he writes about Catholics), and does sneaky games in other places. Given that, why would I trust that what he’s telling me about his interpretations of a holy book that wars have been fought over exactly how to interpreret?
My first exposure to Chick Tracts was the Dark Dungeons tract, bequethed to me shortly after my arrival at NCSU, and it’s a good example of what I’m talking about. I read it, and it was simply so absurd that I kept passing it around to friends for laughs. I mean, I had been playing RPGs since I was 10 (and had DMed games), so reading that the Game Master was the head of some secret Satanic cult dedicated to using real magic, and the implication that this was what was waiting for anyone who got involved with the games was and is just wacky. It might scare someone who’s never played an RPG and grew up fundie from looking at one, but to someone who’s played RPGs and knows that A. you don’t use ‘real magic’ anywhere and B. there isn’t some satanic cult to join to run the game its a source of amusement, not some kind of warning. While ranting on D&D seems to be pretty much passe in fundamentalist circles these days, his disconnect from reality on that topic was a good signal to me that his tracts would provide much amusement but no enlightenment.
Actually, that would be TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimensions In Space). Simple explanation - “It’s bigger on the inside than on the outside.”
(Gee, not too much of a geek, am I?)
Esprix
Idon’t have time to reply to all you’ve said as I’m on break at work so I’ll just stick to one thing. Peter is NOT the rock upon which the church is built. He’s only a man. Jesus is the Rock on which the church is built. People have mistakenly taken His words, “thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church” to mean He was talking about Peter. Not true, back up and see where Jesus asks him who he says that He is and Peter says “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. It’s upon this statement Jesus is referrring to. It is He that is the Rock the church is built on. The church would have collapsed long ago if it was built on a mere man. Nor do I believe Peter was the first “pope”. Also, I don’t believe anyone can forgive sins but God alone through Christ. Just because a priest declares your sins forgiven doesn’t make it so. It’s something you have to take care of between yourself and God. Of course you’re entitled to believe Islam or Buddhism or whatever is the true faith. I choose to believe in the Bible and it’s teaching that Jesus is the only way to heaven for anyone.
His4Ever-I have a quick question: You said “I like leaving tracts around because God can use them and plus as I said in another post, I’m not the type of person who can knock on doors and go up to people and ask them if they know Christ.”
My question is How do you know this method works?
Also how do you know that your interpetations of the bible are correct?
Where do you get your information on Catholics?
His4ever, Gobear, It’s refreshing to see representatives of 2 different faiths debate without atheists/skeptics in the crossfire. I encourage you to keep it up. Bringing in some Jews or Muslims might make it even more interesting , but that might complicate things too much.
I’m sorry you “choose to believe in the Bible”; I choose to believe in God. But you might at least be consistent, and accept what that book says.
Ah, but all of THAT is a lie!
There is no such thing as “worship” of Mary, and anyone who claims so is a heretic. We simply ask her to pray to God on our behalf-just as you would ask a friend to pray for you.
We are not “subject” to the Pope-he is simply the main man in the Catholic church, just as your pastor is the main man at your church.
Purgatory-truth for such is found in certain passages of the Bible-but I’m too lazy to go downstairs and lug up the huge family Bible (that thing must weigh a ton!) with the Encyclopedia in the back.
And the story of the so-called former Jesuit is nothing but lies. He claims Stalin and Lenin were dupes of the Catholic church and that Stalin learned about communism in the seminary. Well d’uh. An ORTHODOX seminary. Both were Orthodox Christians originally, who became atheists. Sheesh.
The man is a liar, and a proven one at that. ANY Catholic could tell you that.
(Speaking of such, you guys remember Joshie?)
As for his “Love the Jewish people”, the ONLY reason the guy was “saved” is that he converted to Christianity.
And if you’re simply leaving them around at random, you’re LITTERING.
I read on some web site where they had a contest to see who could leave Chick tracts in the most ironic places. Most of the people on the site either thought the tracts were just plain funny, or were Christians who liked the few generic, mostly non-offensive tracts, but generally avoided the extremist ones.
One of the guys in that latter group decided for the sake of the contest to order 100 copies of “Doom Town”, the Sodomite tract. For his contest stunt, he found a car in his parking garage with a rainbow “gay pride” sticker (whatever that is, his description) on the back and left one of those tracts under the windshield wiper every morning. Mind you, he didn’t actually share Chick’s opinion on gays. So after a month or so he gets a note to stop doing it stuck under the windshield wiper when he goes to plant the tract. (What a patient fellow, I would have left a note as soon as I saw a pattern.) So in response to the note, he plasters the windshield with his remaining tracts and throws a bunch of them into the car.
Now that’s passed beyond littering into trespass to chattels (granted, a trespass without any damages other than nominal.) Usually I’d oppose that sort of thing, but since it was so extremely offensive and rude, without being born of hostile intent, I just had to chuckle at the story. I guess it’s the Tom Green fan in me. So the next time you find a Chick tract on the bus seat, remember that it could be worse.
Wait a sec, I’m an atheist/skeptic, but I am also raised Catholic. If you’re going to trash the church, do it from knowledge, not ignorance.
Sighhhh…I doubt I can answer all you guys’s questions to your satisfaction. I guess I’m the odd man out here. I don’t know for sure 100% that this method works, but the tracts have God’s word in them and He said His word would not return to Him void (without bearing fruit) Isaiah 55:11. Also, people have sent mail to Chick (I know the disdain you have for him and his tracts) saying that they’ve found Christ through them. I also don’t know that all my interpretations of the Bible are correct. It’s a deep book but I believe the plan of salvation is pretty clear. As to where I get my info on catholics, I read a lot of christian literature. There’s no reason I can see why they would all lie. Also I’ve talked to a few catholics a long time ago. I have a christian internet friend who knows a catholic lady that has candles and statues all over her house. It’s like she’s worshipping them or something. All that isn’t necessary. She depends on her priest to tell her everything instead of reading the Bible for herself. We should all be like the noble Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if what they were being told is true. Acts 17:10-11. Of course, you’re going to say “but whose interpretation is correct”? We can go around and around on this; if people are going to keep debating over and over about interpretations I guess nothing will ever be resolved in their minds and therefore they don’t feel the need to do anything with Christ because, after all, they can say to themselves “since I can’t make up my mind what it’s really saying I can continue as I am”.
Anyway, as I said, I’m not going to know how to answer every question put to me, there are others who could, but I’m not as good at defending my faith as I’d like to be.
That’s all well and good, but what about the parts which Jack Chick said? Do you believe that, too, because “Chick says it happened”? Mr. Chick takes VERY liberal interpretations of the Bible. For instance… where in the Bible does it say that the Ark carried 50,000 animals?
Not that I’m an expert, but it seems to me that the most obvious evidence supporting the concept of purgatory is found in a part (Macchabees?) of the bible which isn’t recognized as belonging to the scriptures by the protestants…
His4Ever, your faith is admirable. Stay nice. You’re doing good.
(i agree with the skepticism concerning the ark, etc. jack chick is a nut job. no more so than most of your neighbors but hes a kook)