His, what have you to say about my quotes from James and Hebrews?
Tacking onto Guin’s request, His, have you attempted to track down the Catholic Catechism or any statements directly from the Church’s mouth?
His4ever, which of Jack Chick’s tracts do you specifically disagree with?
(Please say Dark Dungeons! I’d hate it if we couldn’t count you in for our weekly bout of D&D 3rd Edition.)
His, I have been following this thread with interest, and very much appreciate your politeness and calm responses in the face of a lot of opposition. Believe me there are many posters here who are interested in hearing you out, so please do not get discouraged.
I would appreciate it if you could further elaborate on your disagreements with the Catholic Church. At least one poster here has specifically said that Catholics most assuredly do not worship Mary, or saints, or icons, and yet you seem to ignore these statements, or perhaps just don’t want to come out and say you’re no longer sure of your facts or don’t have a reliable source. Do you think these people are lying when they say Catholics do not worship Mary? I mean, on the one hand, you say Catholics are emphatically wrong (not saved, whatever), and on the other hand, some Catholics on the board are directly refuting the things you’ve said about their church. [And, even if no one has come right out and said it, His, I will say it: “Catholics DO accept JC as thier Savior”]
Again, I’m just curious: do you admit that you really don’t know a whole lot about official Catholic doctrine and dogma? This board is about fighting ignorance. While there admittedly may be a lot of gray areas about, say, scriptural interpretation, I am talking specifically about factual issues of the Catholic Church. Out of the Nicene Creed posted above, assuming “catholic” rather than “Catholic”, where, exactly do you have a problem? Maybe Guin or one of the others can be helpful to you in clarifying some misconceptions you have.
“Do you think these people are lying when they say Catholics do not worship Mary? I mean, on the one hand, you say Catholics are emphatically wrong (not saved, whatever), and on the other hand, some Catholics on the board are directly refuting the things you’ve said about their church.”
I have to say as an outsider to the Catholic church they sure seem to be worshipping demi-gods and idols. I mean “I’m not really praying to St Peter, i’m just telepathically asking him to pray on my behalf” smacks of loophole. Catholic processions in festivals always seem to have some icon leading the way, either Jesus on the cross or statues of a saint. The RCC clearly doesn’t like it when their face is rubbed in it though as this recently banned Catholic group found out- Army of Mary
I’m not Christian though so it doesn’t bother me if you want to represent your god in plaster or stone.
(sorry just thought His4ever could use a hand 
I do however think Jack Chick is scum of the lowest order )
Some light editing (though I don’t think the content or meaning have changed appreciably) for brevity’s sake, and two questions for His4ever, if you would be so kind as to take a stab at them:)
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How do you reconcile statement 2 (which you wrote) with statements 1 and 3 (made in the same post)?
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Given that you have said on this board that your mind is made up and you aren’t going to change it, and that it is not particularly conducive to learning or this board to be apparently closed to the idea that you might be wrong (which, it would seem, is the implication), not to be rude but why are you here? It’s probably fairly clear to you by now that the arguments you make based on OT writings aren’t going to fly (and for which you have certainly received criticism in other threads).
And Esprix spake on to us the Giveattitudes, and we saw that they were GOOD.
The problem is, it really isn’t clear at all – any more than it’s ‘clear’ from the Bible that Protestantism is better than Catholicism. Sure, your interpretation says so, but there are lots of other Christians who read the Bible and still disagree.
I know the King James Bible makes it seem pretty clear-cut. Keep in mind, though, that the Bible is a translation. If you look at a discussion of the Bible’s quotations of homosexuality, I think you’ll find it’s a lot less clear than you thought. You can read a general overview as well as an analysis of each relevant passage here. That particular site explores both ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ viewpoints.
You quoted a very controversial passage. I’m sure you realize that the choice of using the word “abomination” was done by translators, not God or even the ancient Hebrews. You can read a discussion of the original word, to’ebah, here. (For example, did you realize that ‘creeping things’ like snakes are called ‘abomination’? Or women wearing men’s clothes? Or eating crustaceans?)
I hope you’ll keep posting, his4ever. I started posting on online bulletin boards while I was in middle school, when I had beliefs very much like yours. I have found it to be an interesting and challenging intellectual journey.
Carhalk, there is a difference between veneration (dulia), which is respect, and worship (latria), which is adoration. To an outsider they may appear similar, but that is meaningless. Catholics who are educated about their faith know the difference, and so does God.
Let’s go right to the source. The Roman Catholic Church, at the Second Council of the Vatican, in Lumen Gentium said: “This very special devotion [to Mary, in this example]… differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.”
How does it differ? Catholics worship God for creating them, for saving them, for loving them and for guiding them. We worship him for everything he’s given us. The saints are not worshipped, and are not venerated in a similar manner. The saints are invoked as prayer companions, and spiritual examples, and as helpful friends with an “in” with the boss. While some of the language regarding Mary is often flowery, it is basically the same as any other saints, only taken to a different level because of her unique relationship with God, being the mother of God the Son. But Mary is not worshipped as a Creator or a Saviour. She is venerated as an example, as a spiritual mother, and as the most Christian of all Christians. What is celebrated and venerated in Mary, and in all Saints, is the Grace of God that shines forth in their faith, and their elevated position – for they already have what humans today seek, the Divine Vision, co-existence eternal with God.
And if you look at the center of Catholic worship, the Mass, you’ll find hardly a mention of Mary or the Saints in there, aside from the occassional sideline reference or litany.
Catholics (and some Anglicans, and many Orthodox) have a particular devotion to a saint, or to Mary, because that saint evokes in them a response of faith. That saint’s story or message resonates with a particular Catholic.
And as for your sardonic comment about “telepathy,” understand that Catholics do not believe that saints can “hear” our petitions because of any power of their own, but because allows them to do so, because it pleases him. The “power” is his. And as for “how can they hear everyone at once,” which you didn’t mention, but is the common rejoinder (if three years of dealing with anti-Catholic lying fundies is any indicator), it is absurd to apply the concept of linear time to a God who lives beyond the pale of this universe (since time and the spatial fabric of the universe are inextricably linked).
In truth, the difference between veneration and worship are as different as liking someone and loving someone. You care about someone you like, and you care about someone you love. You have feelings of compassion towards both. Perhaps feelings of attraction. But the two are totally different, at core. Outward accutrements aside, they are not remotely the same. And often it is impossible for outsiders to tell the two apart.
But you can tell. You know who you like. You know who you love. And a Catholic can tell when they’re being devoted to a saint, and how it is different than adoring and worshipping God. That a fundamentalist like His, who is totally ignorant about Catholicism, and relies on the word of a liar to back up her libelous position on the Church, cannot tell the two apart is immaterial.
No one can come up to me with a rosary and say “you’re worshipping Mary,” and have it be true, because I know I’m not. It is different. As different as my love for my best friend, or my like for some of my school friends, or my abhorrance of every Southern Baptist preacher whose ever done the world the disservice of breathing.
Not that you really care. I think you’re just playing devils advocate.
And not that His will listen, because she’s bought the lies, and has shown neither the character nor courage to honestly and openly discuss, using only valid sources (ie, non-fundamentalist sources, and preferably official Catholic ones), these issues. Like all fundies, she’s scared of the truth, because she’s never heard a lick of it in her life, in the churches she’s been to.
Particuarly if she reads things printed by Jack T. Chick and believes them.
Kirk
So, His4ever, what made you decide to leave lekatt’s NDE messageboard? Were the posters there asking too many difficult questions?
;j
I honestly can’t think of a clearer example of one than Jack Chick.
I didn’t leave it, he deleted my account. He didn’t like what I was saying anymore than you guys do. And referring to questions, yes some do ask difficult questions I don’t know how to answer. One person was an atheist and no matter what anyone says, I doubt he’ll be convinced otherwise. Also I tried to point out that Lekatt’s NDE experiece or anyone’s experience could be deceptions because what the beings of light tells people doesn’t line up with the Bible. Anyway, that’s all I have to say about it. I can go back to the board in a month if I want to.
Do you know how to talk without name calling I wonder?? I know what language means and when I read something I see what it says. If you want to say that I’m only sharing what I think it says, that’s your privilege. There are millions of other people who read it and see the same thing I do. If you see something else there, then quote a verse and give your interpretation. The Bible is a demanding book and must be studied diligently. You can’t truly understand it if you don’t know the Author. Parts of it are hard to understand for me, other parts are very clear. If you want to disagree with the clear teachings of Scripture, you have that right. I haven’t called you any names, I’d appreciate it if you’d stop calling me names.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter.
Aren’t you saying persecution is good?
Aren’t you preferring adherance to dogma’s to free thought?
Aren’t you putting vengence before love?
The teachings aren’t clear at all.
Witness the myriad of splinter groups based on those writings.
Go back and read the OP.
Sorry, was I bashing again?
I was just looking at Chick’s latest Magnus OpusReal Heat And once again his strange distortion of the truth and obvious lying about figures comes out again.
Good old Bob (BGB to my friends) tells us the Inquisition murdered 68 million people from 1200 AD on. Looking at the entire World population in that period (I’m assuming but wouldn’t be shocked if I’m wrong, that he doesn’t believe people are still being burned by Catholics) Was 300 million people. It remained around that size for roughly 500 years.
Now that is the population of the entire planet .
The Inquisition of the burning and touture type ended roughly around the 16th century. Now I’m sure without doing the proper math that 68 million people slaughtered over 300 years would have been noticed in a population of that size, considering Europes poppulation was roughly 20 to 35% of world population.
Once again Jack Lies! Also using the dubious Alberto as his site gives no credibility whatsoever.
Phew… Shall we even bother looking at other such obvious lies such as Big Daddy or The Gay Blade or even more importantly the horrific slam against Dark Dungeons ???
Given that it has already been demonstrated both that you reject that argument with it disagrees with your opinion and that it is an ad populum argument, wouldn’t it be wise to try and find another angle?
Clear teachings of Scripture? CLEAR? I’d say this thread as much as any other has shoved that particular idea off the boat and into shark-infested waters:) Unless, of course, you can read the Bible in its original language (hint for the weak of mind: it wasn’t English.
And while I’m here…
Replace atheist with Fundamentalist, “beings of light” with pastor, Lekatt with His4ever and NDE with Fundamentalist. Let sit overnight and serve with humble pie.
And I’m wondering if you keep Kosher law, since you follow the Leviticus “teachings” on homosexuality and Kosher law is OT as well. I’d ask about your monthly time of uncleanliness, but I don’t recall you stating your gender one way or another.
Just FTR (For The Record), I’m a formerly Catholic bisexual male. So I have to take a bit of exception to the whole “no gay catholic” thing. And my father is a monk and disagrees with you re: catholics can’t be gay/bi/whatever. Again, FTR:)
I’d ask about people who believe in God and Christ but are total jackasses (re: going to Heaven), but with the number of questions in this thread that have gone unanswered I’d rather ask the ones I don’t already have a pretty good idea of the answer to:)
I asked earlier, His never bothered answering. Hardly a surprise, is it?
In fairness, every question in this forum is being directed at her, so out of stress, she may only be tackling the questions she knows.
On the other hand, His, you can’t make blanket statements about Catholics and not expect a response. Can you at least post an honest “I don’t know” to the questions you haven’t answered so we at least know you aren’t being evasive?