Well God fuck you Mr. President.

The BBQ Pit
21

I don’t see how anyone could be offended by what appears to be an expression of good wishes for the recipient.

Sure, if I got a card that says “May Satan grant your every wish this demonic worshipping season” I might feel a little creeped out, but it’s nothing to be offended by.

Now, if the card had read somewhere more along the lines of “Have a Merry Christmas unless you don’t believe in God then you can go to hell”, that might be offensive, but then again if you don’t believe in God then you probably don’t believe in hell, so it might not actually be that offensive.

Dude, at least he didn’t send you a fruitcake. Now that would be unforgivable.

Cheers!
Jet

22

I see you’ve succumbed to posting utter drivel in anticipation of your 3000th post. I understand - I nearly wet myself with desire when even I saw how close you were. Keep on keeping on, that’s what I always say.

When the hell has that ever happened? Both Bushes have said some pretty deplorable things about atheists in the past - if W wanted to diliberately exclude you as a subgroup I’m sure there’s someone on his staff that knows how to spell “heathen” who could have helped out.

23

I completely agree. But a lot of people around here don’t know the difference between the one and the other. I’m sure someone will come along and prove my point by insisting that there is no such difference.

But, I… kinda like fruitcake…

:slight_smile:

24

This is so fucking STUPID, and it sets back the whole cause of the “separation of church and state” people. The rational people say that the government should not establish a state religion in any way, or infringe upon the rights of people to believe what they want. The others fit right in to the religious right’s image of people who want to “stamp out God in America”.

Our president is a citizen. He has the right to believe in whatever religion he chooses to, and to express that belief where he chooses. He is not bashful about proclaiming his Christian faith, or about supporting political candidates whose morals are based on said faith. You apparently don’t believe he should be free to express this belief in a “personal” greeting he is sending out to mark a FUCKING RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY (and yes I know that December 25 and certain Christmas traditions are pre-Christian). So it apparently offends you that a citizen of this country is free to express his belief in a God, and that this particular one did so.

The sick thing here is that most of these arguments go along the lines of “Christianity is so intolerant and hateful”. That argument falls apart when it’s used by people who start foaming at the mouth at the mention of religious faith, people who do in fact HATE the people who publicly proclaim their faith for no other reason than that they have different beliefs.

Listen, I don’t like Bush as a president because I believe he and his party are a bit too quick to try to impose their morals and beliefs on the rest of us. I don’t like a lot of those beliefs, but I don’t for one second question his right to hold and proclaim those beliefs. Frankly, I think his positives outweigh his negatives right now, and my lifestyle and his politics/personal beliefs are VERY opposed to one another. He said that he doesn’t believe my religion is valid, and it should not be recognized by the state or allowed to be practiced in the military. He withdrew hate crime protection from gays in Texas, and I’m an open bisexual. His religion is clearly a factor in his choices, and I take issue with him there, but it’s stupid as fuck to hate everyone who thinks anything like he does in a public forum.

Did you perchance listen to the speech he gave when he announced his executive orders regarding faith-based-charities? I listened expecting to find myself in opposition to him, and ended up agreeing with most of what he said. The state should not make ANY establishment regarding the beliefs of its people, and there should not be discrimination against those who hold beliefs, either. Atheists are very capable of intolerance and inhumanity toward those who are different (communism, anyone?).

In short: Everyone should have the right to believe what they want, but nobody should have the right to make that determination for others. I know that Bush is not the best symbol of this philosophy, I know that this philosophy is not followed across the board in government, but there are offenders on both sides. The total disrespect for freedom shown by people thinking like you is more disturbing to me than the president sending out personal greetings that reflect his personal beliefs.

LC

25

Get over yourself, dinsdale. It’s a Christmas card. A Chistmas card. Once more if you didn’t get it, a CHRISTMAS card. It’s a freakin’ religous holiday. The birth of Jesus and all that. Might as well get pissed off that that Kwanzaa card didn’t address your European heritage. Not Irish?, better not tell YOU to have a happy St. Patrick’s day, lest your fragile ego be offended. Maybe you’re a pacifist, are you going to get pissed off if your office requests a moment of silence on Veteran’s Day?

Great Googly Moogly, asking someone, regardless of whether it is the president or your neighbor down the street, not to include a religous reference in a Christmas card is missing the point of the whole holiday. Really man, you seem like the type of atheist who won’t be satisfied with theists just respecting your views and worth as an individual; you won’t be happy until all religon is abolished. That’s intolerance.

26

If it were written as he would write it there’d be more mis-spelled words.

27

Well…

It was a CHRISTMAS card, and CHRISTAMS cards are about CHRISTMAS. What did you expect?

If Christmas and all it’s trappings are so offensive to you, why’d you even open it? You could have just ignored it or thrown it away.

Look, I’m not trying to be ugly or smart ass, but as a person who is struggling with over-coming a rather traumatic Southern Baptist upbringing myself, I know that this time of year I just can’t avoid these things. Right now I’m not sure what I believe, and yeah, there are times it pisses me off that I have to see evidence of this holiday everywhere I turn from people who are not necessarily celebrating it because of a deep spiritual belief. BUT I know it’s not going away, and I can choose how I react to it. I can get mad or I can ignore it.
It is better for my psyche if I ignore it. Let the Christians have their fun. I’ll have mine at Winter Solstice, which is where most of this Christmas hoopla was ripped off anyway.

28

Well, seeing as W has said over and over again that he did have a drinking problem, which is why he doesn’t drink alcohol now, I think you’re saying that his religious beliefs are very sincere. Or did you mean to use another analogy?

29

Damn! You’re on to me!
I sure don’t wanna chalk up 3 grand talking about Bush!
Guess its about time to head over to MPS for a self-congratulatory thread. Didn’t someone mention cake earlier?

And Beeblebrox - religious holiday my ass. If you happen to duck your head out of chapel for a smoke, you might find that some folk mistakenly choose various non-christian basis for their celebrations this time of year.

In fact, when you think of all the political opportunities for this one person to institutionalize his specific belief system, that makes it all the more reprehensible that he phrase his greeting thus.

30

Cite please?

My recollection (no cite) was that he denied having a problem, but said he chose to stop drinking so as not to develop a problem.

I freely admit my recollection may be mistaken. So I eagerly await your cite correcting me. However, I remember my reaction strongly. Over the past year I significantly reduced my alcohol intake. I considered whether or not I needed to abstain completely. And it struck me as either a complete over-reaction, or a flat out misrepresentation, for someone to decide that he did NOT have a drinking problem, but nevertheless chose to abstain entirely.

And he has been ever so open on the issue of drug use.

31

I thought this was funny.

anyhow, on the OP:

  1. who paid for said card? the Pres sending out personal wishes to all federal employees = big expense. Personally, I get annoyed by any politician sending off group greetings of this sort, figuring that somehow or nother, tax payer $$ are involved (if only for the postage). Don’t waste $$ on this sort of thing- I"ll assume you mean ‘general good will’ towards all folks mmmkay?

  2. I was especially afronted when I (as the Director of an agency who at the time received funds through one of the departments,) enclosed w/my December check was a ‘greeting’ from the state Budget director, saying “Seasons greattings, blah blah blah good wishes etc blah blah blah and by the way, no state employees are allowed to receive any gifts or gratuitites”. I found out the same heartwarming message was placed into the paycheck envelopes for the state employees as well. No, I"m not in favor of bribery etc, but sheesh. Since the person that I dealt w/on a regular basis had less than nothing to do with the awarding of contracts, and as good as my mustard is, I seriously doubt that giving him a jar of same as a seasonal gesture could be in any way seen as a bribe. Folks who were into bribery wouldn’t give such a notice a second thought, people who were attempting to make good will gestures towards people w/whom they worked closely, could suddenly be concerned that some damn bureaucrat was gonna nail 'em for “Christmas cookies in the first degree”.

  3. Yes, the Pres is a citizen and as such has freedom of speech. HOwever, obtaining and using a list of federal employees was done as part of his official status, which makes it a different issue. Dinsdale got the lovely sentiments 'cause he’s a federal employee.

32

Dude, too many to post. A google search brings up this one:

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,550566,00.html

The article states, without a direct quote:

“President Bush talked about his personal experience with alcohol dependency and how faith helped turn his life around as he urged Congress to pass his controversial faith-based initiative, Reuters reported April 29.”

33

LC: Our president is a citizen. He has the right to believe in whatever religion he chooses to, and to express that belief where he chooses.

But why should we as taxpayers have to pay for his expressing that belief in a mass-mailing Christmas card to all federal employees? If he’s got so much holiday spirit that he really feels the need to invoke God’s blessing on everybody who works for the US government via a personal Christmas card, then let him pay for them himself.

(This isn’t primarily about Christmas or theism or the President, as far as I’m concerned: I despise all corporate-sponsored holiday greetings, public or private sector, as a stupid PR gimmick that makes a mockery of their true significance as exchanges of genuine good will among people who actually care about one another. Go put up your company Christmas tree or wreaths or Santa-and-his-reindeer display if you like it, but spare me the stupid company Christmas card. You think it makes you look caring and friendly and full of holiday joy? Frankly, it just makes you look like a shallow and calculating dork mechanically going through the motions of polishing up your business’s “image”. And as the OP demonstrates, whatever form or content you choose for it is bound to offend somebody in some way, and the offended parties won’t have any personal affection for you to mitigate their irritation. So just cut it out, all of you, right now, and help make the holidays happier.)

34

Did you get a vote for that “best-writer” thread Miller? Cause I swear nearly everytime you write something it always ends in pure hilarity. Sheer class.

35

This reminds me of Crunchy Frog’s (BTW, where HAS he been, lately?) rant a while ago about people who get angry when someone says, “Merry Christmas,” because they don’t celebrate it.

There’s no malice intended, it’s just a freaking Christmas card.

36

To bayonet:

Dude, my search turned up a bunch more along the lines of :

“I am a person who enjoys life, and for years, I enjoyed having a few drinks. But gradually, drinking began to compete with my energy,” Bush wrote in his autobiography. “I’d be a step slower getting up. My daily runs seemed harder after a few too many drinks the night before.”

The morning after a boozy 40th birthday party in 1986, he woke up at Colorado’s tony Broadmoor Resort and decided, on his own, to get sober. Alcohol had begun to “compete for my affections,” Bush said later. Certainly he didn’t need Alcoholics Anonymous, he told the Washington Post: “I don’t think I was clinically an alcoholic; I didn’t have the genuine addiction. I don’t know why I drank. I liked to drink, I guess.”

YMMV. But I think the above somewhat understates what I heard reported as his “young and foolish” behavior from at least college until his 40th b-day.

And we see how well his chosen approach of openness has done with regards his daughters.

I can see how there might be too many vague secondary references to post. So how bout just one attributable quote, dude?

37

First, don’t tempt me. I quit a week ago and the cravings are killing me. Second, you’re logic is pretty faulty here. True, some atheists celebrate … (consumerism?) or whatever this time of year - but it’s not an actual holiday like Christmas, Hanukah, or Ramadan. Since these obviously involve God, and even Kwanzaa involves God to some extent, including a reference to the deity in a “Holiday Greetings” card is completely appropriate, because those that don’t believe are just riding the wave of everyone elses holidays anyway. I suppose he could send a Happy Holidays and Winter Solstice Card to appease the pagans, and you might have to figure out some way to mention Tet, but that’s taking PC to the extreme. Since it is also a federal holiday for the employees*, it is appropriate for the President to address the meaning for the holidays just as it would be appropriate for him to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving and ask them to ponder the good things in life.

What you seem to be implying here is similar to confining President’s Day observations to white sales and furniture store clearances. It can’t remain a holiday (entymology - “Holy Day”) if you strip the reason for the holiday away from it. Then it would be just another day.

You might have better logic and a rhetorical leg to stand on if you took issue with the government observing religous holidays to begin with. But as your posts read now, you don’t have that leg. Keep in mind you would be advocating federal employees would have to go to work on Dec. 25, but at least the logic would hold.

38

Yeah, I don’t know why y’all are so bent out of shape. December and the Holiday Seasons is the time of year when everybody, of all religions and belief systems, can get together and celebrate the Birth of Christ. What are you? Some kind of fucking Grinch, trying to ruin Christmas for everybody?

39

Why does everybody seem to be so all fired up about being “offended”? Is there some innate or constitutional right to “not be offended”? Is “offending” somebody a crime?

Why has being “offended” become this horrible thing nowadays?

Being “offended” is not the same as being harmed in any way. Being offended is not the same as being killed, raped, maimed, shot, imprisoned, stolen from, or harmed in any way at all. You’re offended? That just means your feelings are hurt. So what? Get over it. Boo hoo. Did this letter from GWB cause you harm in some way? Did seeing the word “God” on the page make you break out in hives or get a paper cut, maybe?

I’m not saying you have to like GWB or anybody at all. You can hate who you want to. But why do you think you have the “right” not to be offended? GWB or anybody can “offend” you all they want as long as they aren’t harming you or slandering you.

P.S.:Here are some words guaranteed to offend somebody: God, Satan, Cthulhu, Allah, Jehovah, Ahura Mazda, Buddha. Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Abundant Kwanzaa, Blessed Solstice.

Thanks,
Hope I offended someone somewhere up in there,
-mok

40

So his 21-year-old celebrity daughters like to party because their Dad was open about his own struggle with alcohol?

Dude, you’re sucking the logic right out of this thread.