OK, now you’re just being deliberately stupid. Did you not read the sentence “Media Matters and others have noted that Fox News’ on-air programming has a long history of sexism which mirrors a culture at Fox News and its parent company”, which I even bolded for you before to make it easier? WTF do you think “long history” means – do you think it means “almost a week”? No, it does not. It means that just a cursory look at Media Matters reveals events well prior to Carlson’s deciding to join this outfit in 2005 – the massive harassment lawsuit against Bill O’Reilly settled in 2004, and in 2003, Lisa Brescher, a hairstylist for Fox Sports Net, filed a lawsuit claiming sexual harassment [alleging she] “was subjected to an environment of unrestrained sexual harassment.”
Is it your impression that Carlson, a professed journalist, and a Stanford graduate, would have been unaware of how toxic the climate was before she joined, of Roger Ailes’ sordid reputation, and of how toxic the climate would likely remain in the years after, as indeed it did?
Maybe. I think we should be careful in attributing motives to Carlson since we can only speculate. I presume the likeliest explanation is that it was a big jump up from CBS in terms of money and prime-time exposure, it fit her politics, and she felt she could protect herself against the inevitable misogyny, but who knows. It may well be that she didn’t know how truly evil Ailes was, but she certainly would have had to be aware of the general climate she was getting into.
And since we can only speculate, lets try and speculate in a way that doesn’t blame the victim.
Of course, she could be making the whole thing up, in which case we are not giving Alies the benefit of the doubt - and we shouldn’t rush to judgement either way.
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice.
I suspect there is not enough merit here to make one person completely good, but, for my part, I think what good there is, it is Ms. Carlson’s. And I’d rather not blame her for her own victimization in a culture that I’ve been up close and personal within my own life too many times. Perhaps that is my own bias; blaming women for their own sexual abuse and the discrimination against them means I was culpable in mine.
…the question was when did you find out that Fox News had such a horrifying litany of transgressions and with misogyny seemingly entrenched in their fundamental corporate culture. Three times I’ve asked and three times you’ve deflected the question. Yes: you’ve already mentioned the O’Reilly suit in 2004. And the Brescher case was apparently dismissed with prejudice 13 years ago. But you really are reaching here.
What toxic climate? 12 years ago a couple of law suits were settled. Two years ago someone wrote a book. Where was this toxic climate that Carlson should have known about? In 2011 mediamatters collected a whole lot of quotes that the target audience (both male and female) of Fox News would find to be completely innocuous. You haven’t shown a horrifying litany of transgressions and you haven’t shown outwardly a heck of a lot of misogyny. In reality these things don’t become clear until after you’ve accepted the job and you’ve been there a while.
Are you aware of what you’ve just done? You’ve put the blame, on Carlson, for taking a job that led to her being allegedly sexually harassed. There is no other way to read your words.
Why does it matter if she knew? I mean, even if someone sat her down and said point blank “If you work for Fox, eventually Riger Ailes will demand a quid pro quo. It’s what he does,” does that mean she was wrong to take the job, or that she tacitly comsented to be harassed? There’s been a lot in the news about female comedians being harassed and abused–its apparently a known fact about the whole industry. Does that mean women should just accept that they can only work in the field if they are willing to let that stuff happen without respondibg?
Then I suppose I have, but don’t make this specifically about women or sex. I am ok with general mistreatment, physical, psychological, emotional, etc. of bad people who contribute to that harm. As I’ve tried to make clear over and over, I’m not misogynist, if anything I’m uh…what’s the word for a general dislike of people? I don’t like shitty people. And if a shitty person gets some disproportionate punishment, I’ll laugh and not feel bad about it.
If a scam psychic cheats people out of money, the proper punishment is suing him and putting them out of business. If he loses his foot to gangrene, then so what? I’m happy about that. Let’s say an unlicensed doctor accidentally mutilates her patients, the proper punishment is jail and closing of her medical practice. But if she were eaten by a bear, I’ll mock her for it. An athlete takes steroids for years and gets millions in endorsements. When found out, all you can really do is wipe his records for the books and sue for the money given to him for endorsement. But let’s say he overdoses and is paralyzed from the waist down, am I supposed to be sad about it? No, he deserves that shit! In all these cases, fuck these people. They contributed to their own downfall by perpetuating a scheme to cheat people out of their money, time, and emotions. Each one has a perfectly legal recourse the aggrieved can take that is proportionate to their damage, but what I’ve stated is that their role in creating and maintaining the sort of power structure that continues to shower themselves with money and fame and power should merit at least an outsider to not give a crap about what happens to them.
That’s what I see here with Carlson. I don’t see sex politics and women being played out. I know the type of things that Dangerosa says happens, and I’m sure the women that it happens to are innocent and don’t deserve it. But I’m asking people to not put Carlson in that role of “woman” and just put her in the role of “con artist” because that’s what she is. And con artists, like the ones I’ve described above, are a party to their own retribution.
I’d like you to consider a slightly different scenario. Let’s say the actors are still the same, Ailes, Carlson, and Fox News in general. But instead of sexual harassment, Ailes asked her to hide some money offshore through a legal account, or funnel some cash to ISIS through untraceable 3rd parties. She refused, and he fired her and took her house (let’s say it was some scheme involving Ailes putting up money for it or whatever). Then it came out that in the past, she’s already done those things like give money to Kim Jong Un, incited a terrorist attack in Tunisia, and outed gay activists in Uganda to death squads. Any sympathy for her then for losing her house? Should I be sad that her legal punishment, which would be nothing since she did these things legally, is nothing while poetic justice caused her to lose her house and all her possessions? I think that’s the same thing, and no, I wouldn’t feel bad for her at all.
Too many people see “sexual harassment” and automatically think you have to defend the victim, because what if it happens to you, or your friends or family, or what if it contributes to rape culture? And while I think rape culture is very real and a thing we should watch out for and fight against, in this case, Carlson doesn’t get that privilege for being at Fox News. Just because she’s a woman, she’s automatically enrolled in the club? Hell no! What if she IS Eva Braun huh? How bad must someone be before we stop making excuses for their behavior and finally say, fuck it, he/she deserves whatever’s coming? Anyone working at Fox with that kind of power, whether man or woman, deserves nothing but contempt and laughter at their misfortunes
It matters because she contributed to that culture, that she isn’t an innocent bystander but a gleeful member of the mob. She isn’t a camerawoman or studio electrician, she’s not someone who needed a job or is homeless. She is an accomplished, smart person who was valedictorian and graduated from Stanford and was working in the media before that. She could have gone anywhere, but she chose to go to Fox news. In your example, its like if she sat down in the interview and said “I’ll take the harassment and do the quid pro quo until you stop paying me enough to take it”. Yes, she was wrong to take the job and consented to be harassed. This has nothing to do with other women in other situations. She knew what she stepped into and continued using it to make money for herself until now and she expects people to ignore her role in it. I, for one, am not going to forget that easily
So you’re a misanthrope, as well as a misogynist. Misanthropy doesn’t excuse misogyny. That you dislike people in general doesn’t somehow make it ‘better’ when you express misogynistic sentiment.
If you’re okay with that, fine, but get used to being called out for misogyny when you express misogynistic sentiment.
Transgressions that are on the continuum of rape are entirely different from any of these hypotheticals. They’re never just or appropriate, unlike other forms of violence which can be appropriate for self-defense or restraint, for example.
When you find exceptions for this, you’re cheering on the sexual mistreatment of a woman. Choosing to do this, for any reason whatsoever, is misogynistic. It doesn’t matter what the woman has done. For one reason, others will see this, even if in only a tiny way, as support for finding other exceptions for the sexual mistreatment of women. For another, it further reels in sexual mistreatment, just a tiny bit, back into the pale of acceptable behavior.
To really fight misogyny, patriarchal culture, rape culture, and the like, one must never accept sexual mistreatment of a woman (or a man, for that matter), from harassment all the way to rape, for any reason whatsoever. One must never trivialize sexual mistreatment.
You did these things with your posts. Not the end of the world – I used to say similar things quite frequently when I was a younger man. I was wrong then, and you’re wrong now. And next time you do it, it will be called out as misogynistic. If you want to avoid that, stop saying misogynistic things.
If there were absolutely no gender implications in Fox’s work–if they just scammed old ladies–would you feel the same? I feel like you keep shifting from “she perpetuated a culture of sexual harassment, it’s appropriate that she be a victim of it” and a more generic “She’s a bad person and I like it when bad things happen to bad people”.
I mean, if that random camerawoman also beat her kids, would you also feel good about this happening to her?
Well I suppose if you want to get technical about it, misanthrope contains misogyny. But since I don’t single out women for attacks, I’m fine with the misanthrope label but not the misogyny one.
I disagree. I think often times, we like to think of killing as the ultimate in punishment. For many people, the fear of death is so great that they’ll suffer through anything and everything in order to live, and fight to their last breath no matter their pain. Yet when someone shitty gets killed, most of us are pretty nonchalant if we believe the person bad enough.
Rape is different, its like torture. Despite being “less” harsh than murder, no sane person or justice system would ever sentence someone to be raped even if that person is like the worst type of person in the world. If there was a serial killer that kidnaps and tortures kids, he’d get the death penalty at most, but we’d never sentence him to be raped or tortured. There’s a disconnect here that’s hard to put my finger on.
In this case, obviously we’re talking about something on the continuum of rape in what happened to Carlson. But to me, there’s a continuum for a reason. What she suffered through is such a mild version of being held down and forcefully penetrated that I can’t motivate myself to give two shits about what happened. If it comes out Ailes has done worse things to her, my stance will soften, I guarantee it. But again, she’s no innocent party, she has helped Fox News be what it is today: an evil, lying, misogynistic, anti-immigrant, anti-any religion but Christianity, anti-scient, anti-reality juggernaut that is the mouthpiece of a party of mostly white men who’s elected officials say things like rape doesn’t cause pregnancies or that rape babies are a gift from god. This is the apparatus Carlson supports. So if she goes through some sexual harassment, then good, she deserves it. Only when she repudiates her entire career there will she ever be deserving of forgiveness and sympathy, not before.
I think that’s a great sentiment to have, but ultimately too reactionary. It sounds good to say “there’s never any reason for it” when in fact certain things uniquely evil should be deserving of uniquely harsh punishment. Those at Fox News deserve more than simply having their network shut down due to bankruptcy. Each person there who was an active participant in fomenting the kind of hate Fox has done deserves to be kidnapped by terrorists and beheaded. I would love to see Hannity run afoul of ISIS and be dipped in acid. He deserves that. A few minutes of extreme pain for the lifetime of grief he’s caused millions is a just punishment. You might think that’s insane, but its not, I’m not going to do anything to cause that. I just wish it would happen and would laugh if it did. I am not the agent of their suffering and by their own hands, they will produce no sentiment from me. I’m an objective third party, their pain is entirely their own doing.
To be honest I did consider that. I wouldn’t want some MRA idiot to read this and think its suddenly ok to harass women if they can justify it. The line is very thin and very difficult to see and frankly, those people are not smart enough to make the distinction. But ultimately, I’m a nameless face on a board that’s not too influential (it’d be different if I were, say, the moderator on /r/RedPill) and I’m comfortable making the distinction in my corner of the internet. If you still think what I’m doing is dead wrong, take comfort that it’ll reach no one except the few dozen people who read these things on a regular basis
What if instead of sexual harassment, Ailes asked for the things I said, money laundering, funneling money to unsavory people, that sort of thing? Then would you say she gets what she deserves?
Well obviously I look at the totality of what Fox does. There are a lot of bad people in the world, and I did say I wasn’t going to go down a list and say which places were ok for women to be harassed and which aren’t. To answer your question, no, scamming old ladies is vile, but a tiny fraction of the amount of pain and grief caused by Fox News. If Carlson the old lady scammer were harassed, I’d probably defend her. If she went bankrupt or had her money stolen by an identify thief, then I’d laugh at her and say she deserves it.
If that random camerawomen beat her kids and was harassed by Ailes, I’d feel a bit sympathetic towards her, I probably would say she doesn’t deserve to be harassed, but I wouldn’t feel super bad about it happening
I think you’re right about the bolded part. I speak from personal experience when I say that it’s extremely hard to turn away and reject the mindset that you’ve lived with your whole life. Sometimes, like with Gretchen, it takes a personal experience to have your eyes opened to the truth of what you’ve been so sure was right and realize that you’re wrong.
Yes, she has espoused some pretty shitty views for many years but she’s in a position now to help a lot of women who quietly wonder if they really should just shut up, sit down and look pretty for the men. She has my support.
But you did single out a woman – Gretchen Carlson. It doesn’t matter if you attack others at Fox News as well, you talked about her specifically and that she deserved or earned or whatever this sexual mistreatment.
Such criticism should be entirely separate from this issue. The only reason to bring them together is some form of misogyny – even if it’s paired with misanthropy or hatred of conservatives or whatever. It’s still misogynistic.
I think a lot of this sentiment is loony, but it’s not misogynistic, unlike your assertions about Carlson.
My only hope was that you’d want to recognize the little bits of misogyny within yourself and improve. I’m not worried that some dude on the internet said something misogynistic. But I love the Dope and I love Dopers, including you, and I want to help people as the Dope has helped me.
So I’ll still hope that you try and fight any tiny little shreds of misogyny within yourself, but it sounds like you might just be too damn stubborn to do so.
Maybe or maybe not, but then the issue wouldn’t have anything to do with rape culture or misogyny.
That old stuff is relevant because it was all known at the time Carlson went to work there.
How long have I personally known what a cesspool Fox News is? For many years, certainly. I’ve been participating in the omnibus “How bad is Fox News, really” thread in GD for about two and a half years, and those old Media Matters reports going back more than a decade are not hard to find. I hadn’t seen every single one of the ones I dug up just now, but I’ve certainly seen some of them before.
Emphasis mine. So I’ve provided all those stories and quotes, including the time Ailes locked his office door and dropped his pants in front of a sixteen year old girl and demanded oral sex, threatened others with their jobs if they didn’t have sex with him, and you call it all “completely innocuous” – but I’m the bad guy here!
You want to know how to read my words? Read what I fucking actually write. Like when I said I’m not obsessed with what Carlson knew or didn’t know and it was always just a tangential point. The real point I’m making is about Fox, not Carlson. You, however, for some inexplicable reason seem obsessed with proving that she couldn’t possibly have known anything about her prospective employer. Why this is so important to you I have no idea. It would be a hell of a lot more honest and realistic to suggest that she probably knew at least a good part of what she was getting into but felt she could protect herself and tough it out. There’s nothing discreditable about that.
You know what? You suddenly appeared in this thread, made a whole bunch of stupid snarky comments, and ultimately I have no idea what you’re even arguing.
…and? This wasn’t evidence that a horrifying litany of transgressions and with misogyny seemingly entrenched in their fundamental corporate culture. It was a couple of relatively isolated incidents.
The question was how long have you known that Fox News had a horrifying litany of transgressions and with misogyny seemingly entrenched in their fundamental corporate culture?
You deflected answering that question for the fourth time. The real answer appears to be about a week, no longer than that.
You dishonest piece of shit. I said:
“In 2011 mediamatters collected a whole lot of quotes that the target audience (both male and female) of Fox News would find to be completely innocuous.”
I was referring to the Media Matters cite, that does not mention Ailes at all. And I was speaking from the perspective of the Fox News Target audience: who would find quotes like these:
"Kilmeade’s Response To Senator McCaskill: “That Voice Goes Right Through Me.” During the December 17, 2010, edition of Fox & Friends, after airing a clip of Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO) criticizing Republicans for being hypocritical of earmarks, Kilmeade stated, “That voice goes right through me, I don’t know about you.”
to be completely innocuous, and they would probably tell you to “stop being politically correct.”
“if you go down into the sewer, expect to encounter sewage and sewer rats”.
And yet, for most of this thread, you have been arguing that there is something wrong with this.
Yep: asleep for all 45+ years of your working life. This is a message board on the internet. You’ve posted in the pit, I’ve read what you’ve written, SUDDENLY APPEARED in this thread and have expressed my disagreement. Good gosh stop being such a big baby.
She hasn’t established a conversion to decency. I expect she will settle out of court with Ailes and that Fox News will not be touched. While it is good to see Ailes become a little poorer and a little more subjected to reports by his alleged former victims, this event may lead to less significant changes over at Fox than, say, the O’Reilly Loofuh tape. We’ll see. I challenge Carlson to prove me wrong.
I can easily imagine Carlson playing tennis for breast cancer or making a contribution to a woman’s shelter though. I’ll take positive outcomes where I can get them, but I’m not quite on board to #StandWithGretchen. I respect those who follow their self interest up to a point, but I see no reason to shower them with accolades.
I agree that she still has a lot to make up for. Especially from someone who basically hand-waved away "sexual harassment"amongst many other issues, damaging women’s equality in the process. But I bet there are many women out there who are fans of Fox and are also being harassed. I have to imagine there is a little voice in the back of their minds that knows what’s happening to them is wrong and it helps to have someone they respect give it legitimacy. If all she’s met with is “told you so” and “you got what you deserve” and “what did you expect” from the side that should be supporting her, other women might be less inclined to help themselves, too.
I’m seeing this right now with my own mom. She’s always been super conservative in all the wrong ways and even just recently said she’s “not ready for a woman president”. Lately she’s been asking me the odd question about sexism and racism and I can tell she’s questioning her own long-held views.
I really hope Carlson openly acknowledges her past mistakes and becomes a voice for women’s equality. She’s made a lot of mistakes but I’m only responsible for my own actions and I think the right thing to do is give her support and the chance to change.
Being happy when bad things happen to bad people – I generally save that for people like the Manson Family members, or dictators, rapists, child molestors, etc. Fox News? Who cares? Indifference is one thing. Actually being happy about it? Just because they have a different view point, even if I think it’s pretty vile, I can’t get behind that.
Quite frankly I’d be willing to bet that the majority at Fox News doesn’t really hold those views they express, or at least aren’t all that extreme about them. They’re all about getting ratings. The more controversy, the more people will watch.
And maybe it’s just the cynic in me, but I don’t CNN or MSNBC as much more virtuous. They’re all out for the same thing: ratings and money. Controversy sells.
Carlson isn’t my favorite person, but she’s not evil. She’s not Eva Braun, or Susan Atkins. She didn’t do anything to deserve this. Is she a nice person? No. Is sexual harassment the logical punishment for being a bitch? Absolutely not. And don’t tell me “I blame Ailes for this!” Because saying you’re happy about it shows you truely don’t mean that.
That is your mistake. You want to think this is just the same sexism argument present in every single case of victim blaming. But its not.
I will NEVER use the argument “She got what she deserved” if a woman is harassed/raped/attacked while wearing something risque, or drinking too much, or in a bad part of town, or trusted the wrong person, or already gave consent to a previous sexual advance, etc. Never. But in this case, with Fox, its different from all of that.
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Of course it exactly the same. Its the idea that only “properly behaved” women don’t deserve to be attacked. The only difference is that you think drinking, dressing sexy, and going out to bars and clubs and bars falls under “proper” behavior, and working for Fox News (and, I suspect, simply being a conservative woman) does not, and as such, the bitch is only getting what she deserved.
