Respect and dignity aren’t nonexistent, from my understanding (and due to my privilege I’ve rarely witnessed the mistreatment – my understanding comes mostly from the reports of women), but they are frequently in short supply. Mistreatment is not ubiquitous, but it is pretty common nonetheless.
But those two articles were written after Carlson’s allegations came out. There’s no reason to believe that she would or should have had any idea of the kind of work environment it would be when she started working there.
I hope Ailes isn’t the norm, but in my understanding he’s not that unusual either. There’s a great chance many or most big organizations have an Ailes somewhere in management, and most probably have someone who has ignored, dismissed, or covered up allegations of mistreatment.
That’s why I stand up and applaud whenever a lawsuit like this comes along. Because I’m hoping it helps a whole lot more workplaces than just Fox.
I’d really like to picture business execs shredding their porno mags, sweating bullets, hoping no one recorded what they said to Bimby McBoobsie yesterday, and praying to God that if they never harass a woman again, can they please please pleeeeease not end up like Roger Ailes?
As if we need another reason to not even hint at any whiff of responsibility or blame for Carlson (looking at you, YogSothoth), it’s because we shouldn’t do anything that might have even the slightest chance of reducing the chance that other women in similar situations would choose not to report their mistreatment.
Some places ARE pretty damn good. Some are not. Ask a woman at CBC how it was to work with Jian Ghomeshi. Or ask any one of Bill Cosby’s victims, some of whom worked with or around him when he was on “The Cosby Show” on NBC (I don’t think Fox News even existed then.) These are the high profile cases, the ones involving people famous enough for the media to care.
Or walk into any number of places. Jesus, just look around.
Many if not most women you know have experienced this sort of shit or are going to, be it at work, or at school, or on a bus, or whatever. It IS normal. I know that’s a terrible thing to have to realize, but there it is. It happens to women all the time. And then someone blames the victim for it.
I’m not obsessed with what Carlson knew or didn’t know and it was always just a tangential point. However, I do find it hard to believe that anyone could join an organization with such a nefarious culture and not know about it. Hell, even I’ve known about it for years, not specifically about Ailes’ sexual predation but about the general culture of dishonesty and backstabbing.
There’s an interesting book that supports your thesis. However, I think there are vast differences of degree – some companies have one or two such individuals in random management positions, while Fox News has a core culture of them, with the guy right at the top being the ultimate source of all of it. Seriously, you’d be hard pressed to find even one story about any of the other major networks to rival the plethora of scandals at Fox, or their incredible biases and blatant lies.
But dishonesty and backstabbing aren’t sexual mistreatment. A reputation for one doesn’t say anything about the other. Sexual mistreatment can come from the squeaky clean just as easily as from the morally disreputable.
Again – biases, lies, and the like, have nothing to do with sexual mistreatment.
Well, one theory is that I’ve been asleep for all 45+ years of my working life. Another theory might be that I’ve worked for reputable institutions. But when in doubt, always better to go with the insult, right?
Since this is supposed to be a comparison with Fox News, let’s keep in mind that Ghomeshi was an isolated case, and is now gone. Ditto for Cosby, and neither of those individuals were a reflection of the culture at their organizations. Meanwhile Ailes is still there, still running the place the same way, and denying everything.
Again, we’re comparing with Fox News. In relative terms, go back and see if some of the stuff I said or linked about Ailes could qualify as “too minor to report” which characterized many of the claims in your cite. Not trying to minimize them and I can empathize with being on the receiving end of this sort of crap – if I had ever seen it I would at least have initiated disciplinary action and an HR report. I hate these fucking testosterone-infested yahoos, but I haven’t personally seen them in a work environment. But most of what Ailes did was flagrantly criminal. Ditto for the suit against O’Reilly, which Ailes responded to by trying to charge the complainant with extortion.
So yes, this stuff goes on to a greater degree than anyone would like, but Fox takes it to a whole new level.
…your insistence that “Fox takes it to another level” really isn’t backed up by anything other than your personal incredulity based on your 45+ years of being in work. Which is why you’ve been accused of being “half asleep.” Because you’ve missed a hell of a lot.
Just take a look at the film and television industry. There was a lot of controversy this year at the oscars in regards to how poorly represented black actors/etc were this year. But did you know in the last 88 years there have only been four women nominated for Best Director? And only one win?
The film and television industry generally treat women like crap. Not just Fox. Try reading this blogwithout getting depressed. The stories of how women are treated on set should disgust you. And, in an industry where only 1 woman in 88 years can win an oscar, that should give you an indication of how much bullshit any woman has to take to get to the “top of the ladder” in television. There aren’t as many options and opportunities as you probably imagine. There are four major networks? Four nationally syndicated breakfast programmes?
If you think accusations against two people is “a whole new level” you are more unconscious than I thought.
Two in five women say they’re sexually harassed in the workplace - the ones that are willing to say so, anyway - and you think two people in “a whole new level”? So Jian Ghomeshi, one guy assaulting women with management looking the other way and pretending they can’t hear, that’s just a one-off. (We hope - who knows? IF they let one guiy get away with it, how do we know there weren’t more?) But TWO guys, whoa, whole new level! No way that’s happened at another media company! I mean, sure, David Letterman was long reputed to harass female co-workers but I’m sure he was the only guy at CBS doing that.
I’m glad you got to work in an industry where apparently none of this ever happens ever. You must be sensationally lucky. Your experience may not match that of a great many women in the workplace who report that this sort of shit is really, really common.
I’ve been a victim of sexual harassment, and I’ve been “active” in the victims community for 25 years.
Some organizations do seem to be better than others and some cultures better than others. IME academics is NOT one of them at a University level. Male tenured professors are often horrible - especially with female graduate students. A girlfriend of mine just completed her PhD three years ago - it was delayed a year because she had to find a new adviser once she reported the sexual harassment that was going to keep her from getting he PhD without having to exchange favors. He’s tenured - he’s still there. She’s the one closest to me with this story - but I’ve heard similar stories from three other women. However usually part of their deal is that they won’t sue - and they won’t talk about it. Which they don’t - being a “problem” is a good way to end your career in academia - and you need all those references. Usually, men aren’t going to see it - the perpetrators make sure there are not witnesses - particularly creditable male witnesses - the women don’t talk for fear of being branded “trouble”
But no organization is without its share.
If you’ve worked high level in organizations, its ubiquitous - and tolerated. You get rid of the guy who administers email when he harasses a Project Manager - you do not get rid of your CISO when he harasses a Project Manager - you quietly move the PM to another department, give her a raise, and hope she doesn’t sue.
And I’m not talking about off color remarks and dirty jokes. I’m talking about CEOs who hand out hotel room keys. Vice Presidents who have exceptions to filters to browse porn at work. CIOs who have affairs with their staff- and promote those staffers they are having affairs with (which even if consensual, is still sexual harassment - to the OTHER people in the organization who aren’t getting a fair opportunity. Law partners who go through attractive female legal assistance like kleenex. I can name (but won’t) the reputable Twin Cities companies where this has happened. Once again - how do you think you would know this is happening. The perpetrators cover their tracks, and the women don’t talk outside their closest circle until they are ready to sue - and then they don’t talk because it might impact their settlement.
Who said anything about executions? Don’t exaggerate this into more than what happened and start throwing out comparisons to murder or genocide. And don’t say things like I’m just like Fox News without backing it up. We have on video Carlson knowing, willingly, and gleefully relishing her role as the female apologist for that trio of douchebags. They target innocent women, downplay their pain, assume they’re supposed to be happy living in her 1950’s fantasy world. This is the type of shit she perpetuates. Now I’m supposed to feel bad for her? She is not an innocent party to this, that’s why she deserves no sympathy
Believe me, you’re talking to someone who goes to other boards and defends any so-called SJWs against attacks by reddit RedPill-ers or MRAs like those GamerGate mobs. I know what you think I am, but I’m not like that. I’ll clarify for you. I don’t think sexual harassment is justice. We live in a world with laws, and I think the punishment for someone like Carlson who spouted hateful beliefs that are harmful is and should be a big fat nothing. She shouldn’t be punished for it in the eyes of the law. If she is harassed, then her attacker should bear the full brunt of the justice system. But that doesn’t mean that personally, I’m going to shed one single solitary tear about her situation. I know its not justice that she was harassed, but I think she deserves it. I know its not right to be happy that she’s being attacked, but I’m not going to give a damn. I may not condone such retribution, but my anger at it varies with how bad I think the person is.
So don’t claim I’ve bought into anything. I know what happened to her is wrong. But if you’re telling me I should jump to her defense, then fuck that shit. She is as bad as the rest of them who are hurting actual innocent women, spreading the myth that a woman’s place is in the home, that they don’t deserve to be paid the same for the same work, that they are victims because of how they dress or what they drink. Poetic justice is satisfying for a reason and she deserves whatever happens to her
There’s a few instances here and there where she seemed to push back against the BS spouted by her co-hosts, but they are few and far between, and often ambiguous as to whether it was a joke or not. My problem with Carlson isn’t solely her her insufficient support of women, but her support of the whole Fox News culture as a face of the station. Ailes could have attacked her on her religion, her pay, her politics, etc. and my reaction would have been the same: “Boo fucking hoo, find someone who gives a shit”. If any of those other qualities of hers were attacked, there wouldn’t be the reflexive defense of people suddenly claiming solidarity with her.
There’s plenty of shit she’s defended that makes her deserving of whatever she’s received at the hands of Ailes. Her idea of religious freedom is her religion should be above all others, even a fictional one threatens hers. She defends Trumps’s non-existent donation to veterans. After Joy Behar attacks Fiorina’s face after a debate, she has the gall to pretend like she’s any better with the two lunkheads she sits next to every day. She managed totie in the IRS, Benghazi, the VA, and Ebola into one giant Obama conspiracy. This is simply a small sample of what she’s said outright, not to mention the people she’s had on her show who she gives free reign to lie, slander, and attack anything meeting the Fox target demo. By giving them a platform without debate, she condones them. Sure, that smacks a bit of guilt by association, I think its apt in this case. She could have done a lot to stop it, been the voice of reason, but she left a perfectly decent job to be a star at Shit Station. No sympathies
Let’s say I wanted to sympathize with her. Here’s what she should have done. Go to Fox as the “Colmes” in the bunch. Speak out constantly against what Fox is doing. 3 years ago she admitted she wants allowed to wear pants. You think in the meantime she could have said “fuck it” and worn it and dared Fox to do something about it? Or maybe speak up for other women on Fox, organized a sit-in where they all wear pants? Sure, she might not have lasted as long, but I’d believe her sincerity. If tomorrow Ailes offers her her old job back at a raise and promised not to harass her specifically, there is a 100% chance that I believe she’d take it in a heartbeat. She’s shown herself to be an opportunist and she’ll continue to be one until she repudiates her entire tenure at Fox
Crosspost. I believe Carlson is an opportunist, but that opportunists can sponsor helpful lawsuits. Moving forward, I hope she shows more character and moral courage. I don’t have even faint hopes for Roger Ailes.
Generally speaking, I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask Gretchen to be like Holmes, since Fox News has had a total of one person like that at the network. Part of the problem is that Carlson in general has taken the inanity up a notch while Megan Kelly has tried to place at least a little intelligence on the table. But that’s hard. I don’t like to subject people to ever rising moral bars. That said, I do think her general lack of character should be acknowledged. I opine that her coming out in favor of the assault weapons ban for example was last minute pandering. Advocating a curb on the gun show loophole would have been more practical – it has more support among NRA members for example. I’m guessing that she didn’t and doesn’t care.
Still no smoking guns. I did find 2 clips from 2009 and 2010 when Carlson’s beauty hadn’t dimmed (though frankly she remains attractive by any normal standard). She and another good-looking woman would appear on Bill O’Reilly’s Culture Warrior segment (Carlson was one of the culture warriors). Basically, “…Bill O’Reilly engage[d] two educated women, on an almost weekly basis, in discussions about prurient topics with accompanying videos.” Topics included a Pamela Sue Anderson PETA advertisement, a German anti-AIDS ad where an actor has sex with Hitler, and a discussion about whether Louisiana strippers should be eligible for compensation by BP after the large oil spill. (Carson first wanted to see the documentation whatever the hell that means, but then conceded that the strippers had a claim as business had declined. She also said she didn’t care. I guess she was all over the map, though she ended by signing off on BP compensation going to Gulf Area strippers – it’s not the government paying the money out!!)
Having read #168 through 170 on how common this stuff is, I’m willing to acknowledge my biased perception and say that harassment may well be a lot more common than I thought, but I still say that I personally haven’t seen it either in academia or in reputable companies that I’ve associated with. I certainly recall a tumultuous period in the 70s when for whatever reason there were so many relationships and a few affairs going on in my circle of academia that I needed a chart to keep track of it all, but that never struck me as harassment or anything manipulative but just the spirit of the times and the baby boomer demographics.
But the key question remains whether Fox News is so significantly worse than the norm that it’s an outlier and a special case. I maintain that it is, and here are those two links again that seem pretty damning:
Other networks may have the occasional problem star or exec, but I have yet to see any network with such a horrifying litany of transgressions and with misogyny seemingly entrenched in their fundamental corporate culture. And I disagree that the general mendacity of Fox News has nothing to do with it – I think both things stem from a general lack of ethics, and the poster boy for all of it if the news reports are correct is the psychopath and sexual predator Roger Ailes.
…so exactly how long have you known that Fox News had such a horrifying litany of transgressions and with misogyny seemingly entrenched in their fundamental corporate culture? When did you find out? Why haven’t you pitted them before for this? Why haven’t you spoken up before?
I personally had no idea until Carlson spoke up. And people didn’t speak up until after Carlson started her suit. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at CBS, at NBC, at ABC. But apparently you do. So please share with us what goes on behind the scenes at other networks, and please share with us how long you’ve known how bad things were at Fox.
What’s with all the snark? The lack of ethics, lies, and fabrications at Fox News have been widely known for 20 years, since it’s founding by Ailes, a former ruthless attack dog for the GOP, and far more influential people than I have been covering it for years, like this article from Media Matters in 2009 or the coverage of O’Reilly’s sexual harassment settlement in 2004. The utility of Carlson’s suit is in revealing yet more sordid details and plainly showing that they learned nothing and changed nothing in the supposed reforms following the O’Reilly affair. If you look at those links I posted above some of the stuff is pretty shocking.
I don’t claim to have inside info on what goes on at the other networks, but I noted a distinct absence of any significant news stories about such transgressions. If I Google any of those networks looking for stories of sexual harassment, I get stories that the networks have published about sexual harassment; if I Google Fox News, I get all the stuff that’s been happening at Fox News. Those stories are currently dominated by the Carlson lawsuit, but they contain lots of other information like the six other women who have also come forward with harassment complaints, and that Doocy is apparently almost as much of a scumbag pig as Ailes himself.
It doesn’t matter what you’ve done or your positions on other issues – you’re just continuing rape culture, in your own tiny way, with all this. And it’s a choice you’re making. You can choose to never be okay with anything on the continuum of rape under any circumstances whatsoever, including with Fox News and conservatives, or you can carve out exceptions in which you’re sort of okay, or “don’t shed a tear”, or find it poetic justice, or believe that “she deserves whatever happens to her”.
You’ve made the choice, and that says something about you. It doesn’t mean that you’re a terrible monster of a person, but it means that you’ve decided that sometimes you’re okay with sexual mistreatment of women, for certain women in certain circumstances.
…I’m not asking about the alleged “lack of ethics, lies, and fabrications.” I asked about “how long have you known that Fox News had such a horrifying litany of transgressions and with misogyny seemingly entrenched in their fundamental corporate culture.” You’ve posted about one incident way back in 2004. That doesn’t demonstrate misogyny entrenched in the culture. You argue that “Fox is a shitty place for women to work where bad things happen” but you haven’t shown any evidence of this apart from the words of Carlson and the other woman that came forward this week. If she didn’t come forward how would you have known?
What happened last week when you googled for stories on Fox News and sexual harassment? I’m pretty sure you’d get the same results as you’d get for the rest of the networks. What you google now is really beside the point. You didn’t know last week that Fox News had such a horrifying litany of transgressions and with misogyny seemingly entrenched in their fundamental corporate culture. You only found out this week like the rest of us. You only found out Fox News was an “outlier” a couple of days ago.
You don’t actually know what is happening at the other networks and you won’t unless someone “blows the whistle.”
First of all, regardless of what you’re “asking” about, I’ve made the case that the lies, distortions, and fabrications at Fox are part and parcel of the same lack of ethics that contributes to their misogyny, whether you like that conclusion or not. There’s a thread on this that’s been going on for nearly four years and is a pretty good glimpse into the Fox mindset and their utter lack of ethics and decency, including a link (post #795 I think) to this priceless gem in which our old pal Steve Doocy, another male host, and a blonde bimbo inform the Fox viewers that a woman’s purpose is to always cater to her man’s needs, and if the man cheats, it’s her fault for not being good at her job.
Secondly, your statement that “I only found out this week” what their culture is really like is pure bullshit because Ailes’ sexual predation and the Fox culture has been known for a long time – for instance, this article from two and a half years ago:
Gabriel Sherman’s forthcoming biography of Roger Ailes reveals a pattern of misogyny and sexism from the Fox News CEO. The Loudest Voice in the Room documents numerous examples from Ailes during his years working in television, both on Fox and elsewhere. **Media Matters and others have noted that Fox News’ on-air programming has a long history of sexism which mirrors a culture at Fox News and its parent company **… Sherman’s reporting confirms Ailes’ obsession with displaying his female anchors’ legs on Fox programs. The topic of the dress code and makeup of Fox News’ female personalities has long been the subject of scrutiny among writers. Fox News host Gretchen Carlson recently admitted that “pants were not allowed on Fox & Friends.”
In addition to the allegation that Ailes once offered to increase a female producer’s salary in exchange for sex, Sherman’s book features several examples of Ailes’ sexism … Ailes: “Move That Damn Laptop, I Can’t See Her Legs!” …
I think you are confusing two things - a business model that you find abhorrent and unethical - as all right thinking people do - and a culture that tolerates sexual harassment. You WANT Fox to be guilty of this because it fits your preconceived notions of what Fox is…and since to you the connection is therefore obvious, “Carlson should have known better.”
There might be a connection. I’m not sure if I’ve seen one anecdotally. And, if you start with a different premise, i.e. Fox’s behavior isn’t unethical (:dubious:) you’d come to a different conclusion. Coming into it as a (presumed) conservative, Carlson is likely to have exercised the same fallacy you did - the other way.
…you haven’t made that case. You’ve conflated the two: which is the actual problem. They are two different things. The culture of misogyny is separate from whatever ethical failings Fox News might have. And we know this because that same culture of misogyny also exists in businesses and places that do not have the same “ethical faults”. You’ve proven that Fox News fairly reflects the views of a number of Americans and that Carlson took the job knowing this. But that is all you’ve shown.
But you did only find out this week, didn’t you? This isn’t about what others knew. Its about what you knew. Its about what Carlson could reasonably be expected to have understood back when she took the job.