I don’t think this was ever the intention, AFAIK. I think it was just that people would be guaranteed the right to live in either official language, and to be provided government services in either official language.
Besides, education is a provincial jurisdiction, so it’s hard to see how they would even have implemented such a thing.
So there is a feeling of backstabbing, then, as if “It was ok all this time, and now you want to change us?” That would certainly alter the analysis.
What’s sad about this thread, as well as the silly overreaction by so many Canadians over a harmless little comedy sketch, is that we used to have AN ENTIRE SHOW, “Talking to Americans,” starring the amzingly irritating Rick Mercer, designed to make fun of Americans and make them look stupid through the magic of intimidation and film editing. This show actually won Canadian industry awards.
Matt, I don’t seem to recall you starting an indignant thread about it. Why is that?
Jesus, we must have some secret national stockpile of humourless assholes that work for the federal government who come out of the woodwork every time someone says anything that violates the Ottawa Valley Code Of Speech.
And God forbid anyone go beyond just making jokes about French or English and actually offend the SEPARATISTS. Oh, the poor, put-upon separatists. I’m so sorry for their wittle traitorous feelings.
You may notice I dealt with that in my OP.
:rolleyes: Because “You’re in North America, speak English!” could only be offensive to separatists.
erislover, I think a bigger part of it is that, as matt said, francophones make up so much of our population. It’s not exactly a small minority like the Mandarin speakers around your lab, you know? When it gets to the point where a minority is one quarter of the country’s population, it stops becoming very minor.
You’re probably right, matt, that that was never the intention. I’m probably in a dream world when I think it was meant as that, but I can dream right?
Of course I’ve never had to deal with anything like what’s been described so I really don’t know.
Well, no, you really didn’t. Your entire argument appears to be “Mercer didn’t scream about it.” So his style of delivery was different. So what? Is racism any less offensive because I smile when I deliver it?
It’s quite obvious to me that Mercer’s equally offensive. (Disclaimer: I don’t think either Mercer or Triumph the Insult Comic Dog are funny.) The premise of Mercer’ss show was that a particular nationality was comprised of idiots. If he just wanted to do a Jaywalking ripoff he didn’t have to leave Toronto. Triumph the Insult Comic Dog’s premise is that HE is a colossal jerk who makes fun of everyone - you will note he insults everyone, whereas Mercer never did a Bantering to Belgians or Conversing with Cambodians. So in a sense, Mercer is quite a bit worse. The fact that Mercer’s delivery was snide and mean, a wink-and-smile “aren’t these people so much DUMBER than us” approach, rather than O’Brien’s in-your-face obnoxious comedy-by-loudness, doesn’t make Mercer’s assholery any less momentous, does it? So what’s the REAL difference? That Mercer’s on your side of the border?
I find it hysterically funny in its own way that people here shriek about Conan O’Brien’s stupid show when insulting English Canadians is routine in Quebecois media, Canadian shows routinely make fun of Americans, everyone makes fun of Newfgoundladers, and on and on. If you can’t take it when you’re made fun of you have no right to make fun of others. By the way, feel free to make fun of Toronto, Ontario, and any number of ethnicities in my background, whatever they are, there has to be half a dozen - Irish, German, whatever. Who has time to worry about crap like that?
(Of course, I fully agree it’s absurd of the government to give millions of dollars to Conan O’Brien and NBC, but shit, how’s that an English-oppressing-the-French issue, anyway?)
I think it obvious I was referring to the joke about separatism. Beat that straw man. But what can I say; I despise separatists. (the Western kind, too. I am an equal opportunity federalist.)
By the different format, I meant that Mercer had to get Americans to cooperate with him, as opposed to just insulting them to their face. But whatever. One show’s being offensive does not negate another show’s being offensive, and I think showing President Bush calling the prime minister Jean Poutine is not the same thing as screaming at a francophone to speak white.
I have no problem with joking about separatism. I have a problem with using separatism as an excuse to mock any random French-Canadian.
Just thought I’d add this.
Wow… someone mentioned Sugar Pie about a page back. And it reminded me of this joke we used to tell when we were kids.
Q What do you give a Quebecois for his wedding present?
A His first set of dentures.
Sorry, I digressed. A couple of points no-one’s made yet. The Nazis haven’t been in power since 1945. Making fun of the Germans’ current problems, such as their absurd contortions on letting the Poles into the European Union, not giving the Turks passports, etc, wouldn’t be on the same level as those tired old Nazi jokes. In fact, they would have some political relevance. Making fun of a bunch of people who have gone out of the way to marginalize themselves linguistically for the last thirty years is perhaps just as relevant. But really, I feel for this jarbaby poster. Stick to your guns. You’re just dealing with a bunch of humourless people here. You’re quite right to point that out, but really, they’ll go on forever… sorry.
I’ve laughed at English humor programs making fun of French-Canadian people. I’ve laughed at French-Canadian humor programs making fun of english people. But there are some lines that just aren’t really supposed to be crossed.
I think that there are some jokes that Triumph wouldn’t do in the United States. Sure, the puppet makes fun of everything and everybody. But would Triumph make 9-11 jokes in Las Vegas? That wouldn’t be so bad. But what if he just screamed at random people about how they’re not sensitive enough so they deserve getting a few planes thrown down on them? I’m pretty sure he hasn’t done that. If he has, then Triumph really does make fun of everything and “we” (French-Canadians) should lighten up.
But if he hasn’t (and I’m pretty sure he hasn’t) then, as “carthartic” as joking about 9-11 would be, it would probably hurt people. I think (I might be wrong, who knows?) that if Triumph had made a joke like that, there wouldn’t have been a lot of posts about just “lightening up” and “understanding that he makes fun of everyone”. When something hurts, it hurts. A lot of French-Canadians seem to be feeling a rise in tension between French-Canadians and English-Canadians. There is some bad stuff going on in Canada and people have died in the past because of tensions like these. (But not tourists! Come visit, we’re very friendly 
)
What if Triumph had gone to Iraq and made 9-11 jokes in parts of the country that really don’t like having the USA around? Some would probably have laughed. Wouldn’t that upset you a little? Now, imagine that these people are just on the other side of a State.
So far, I haven’t heard a single 9-11 joke in Canada. Let’s make a deal. We won’t make fun of you for having had a plane dropped on two of your buildings and killing a lot of people. (Why? Because it would be disrespectful and rude) You can still make fun of us for bacon, funny accents, poutine, how ugly we are, we really don’t mind. Just stay away from seperatism and language for a couple of centuries (issues that have also killed a lot of people) and leave the language jokes to the Canadians that know enough about the situation to make “tasteful” rude jokes.
On a more cheerful note, I did laugh when I heard about the program where United States of America’s citizens were asked about Canadian things. But I would have laughed at the inverse. I know that I’d have trouble deciding whatever Philadelphia is a city or a State, let alone locating it on a map. Why’d you have to divide the country in so many tiny parts? It took me forever to learn the thirteen segments Canada is made of.
Even though six deaths as a result of terrorist actions is six too many, I think you need to be more careful in your comparisons. It’s not like the FLQ were bringing down buildings in downtown Montreal either.
I don’t think either that anyone should stay away from certain subjects altogether. However, when they do, they should be aware of what’s at stake and how jokes will be taken, regardless of intent. That way you can avoid accidentally stumbling into lame jokes that have hateful connotations where you make them.
Really, I’m coming to realize it wasn’t so much the fact that the humour was ethnic that bothered me. Ethnic/geographic/linguistic humour is kind of dumb, but it can be funny as long as everyone understands it’s in fun. (Sample: Did you hear they’re going to be having a Canadian version of Survivor? You have to drive across Alberta with in a Volkswagen Bug with a bumpersticker that says “I’m a gay Quebecois New Democrat and I’m coming for your guns.”)
For me, though, it was the “Speak English” thing that really pushed my button more than anything else. That went beyond ethnic humour and was just way beyond the pale, AFAIC, owing to the history behind that kind of remark.
Without that, I would have probably just rolled my eyes and went “Oh look, another dorky comedian.” Hell, I probably would have started calling myself a Quebecqueer. (Maybe I still will.)
And I think it’s incumbent on a comedian to know where s/he can and cannot “go” in a particular context.
(jarbabyj: Is it possible your envelope came back because you had addressed it to “Quebec, Montreal, Canada”? That’s rather like addressing a letter to Idaho, Boise.)
Speak white??? :eek:
What the hell is that?
I thought the “speak English” joke was bad (I agree that it sounded to me like it was said out of frustration more than anything else) but in a country that’s supposed to be bi-lingual it’s not really an unreasonable request. Or is it that the English speakers all have to learn French but the French speakers don’t have to learn English?
“Speak white” is a very offensive was to say: “speak English”.
Education is a provincial matter, so it’s up to each province to decide what’s on the curriculum. French schools in Québec have five years of ESL classes. In Montréal, you’ll have to look hard to find people who don’t understand any English. In the rest of the province, though, it’s not that rare.
Official bilingualism does not mean that everyone is bilingual. What it does mean is that all Canadian are/should be able to get federal services in either French or English. There is only 1 province that is officially bilingual (New Brunswick).
Joke 'em if they can’t take a fuck.
At some point, it’ll occur to you that the only analogies that actually make the jokes look bad involve comparing tensions in Canada to the worst terrorist act in history, or else the worst genocide in history, or else the worst institutionalized racism in history. Unless you can convince me that the Terror in Canada is equal in horror to the 9/11 attacks, this is a bogus analogy.
I keep hearing that the joke is “beyond the pale,” but considering the spirit in which it was made – in which the real butt of humor is offensive assholes, not the putative target of the joke – I’m not seeing any justification for this point at all.
I kinda think that if either Gulliver’s Travels or The Butter Battle Book were required reading in elementary schools, a lot of these conflicts could be cleared up.
Daniel
I think the reasons most of us southern Americans (as in living in the USA) find the whole Quebec situation both funny and confusing is that you have a rather large ethnic group–or cultural group or whatever–screaming that its being oppressed when there is no evidence of said ‘oppression’. When we think of repressed minorities we think of Kurds in Iraq/Turkey, Muslims in Bosnia, blacks in South Africa, etc. etc., not some relatively well-off person whining because everyone else won’t respect their language and culture. Can’t you see that, compared to a Kurd, you don’t have much to complain about? The whole thing seems rather silly to me.
Yup, compared to those sorts of places, it is not so serious. But it is a bit more than just a regional rivalry. If we don’t want it to become like the places you mentioned in the future, it is a good idea to not trivialise the problem now. I don’t really care if we separate, as long as it is chosen by a clear majority and the national debt is divided fairly. I would like to keep a fairly strong economic partnership though.
[Aside] I once bought this phone in the shape of a frog. I showed it to one of my Quebecois co-workers and she said, “Oh, a francophone!” 