What are the differences between men and women?

[Babale]

@thorny_locust

I’m not trying to “sneak my way there”. I’m trying to point out that the reasons given for not having co-ed teams in schools all rely on the idea that seriously competitive sports to be played by only the few best students are the only reason to have sport teams in schools at all.

…no.

The arguments for why high school sports, IE the collection of official sports teams representing high schools at competitions across the country, should be segregated by sex all involve the argument about competition, because that is what the collection of entities we can high school sports are.

No one is talking about PE when they’re talking about high school sports.

What you’re talking about is divorcing high school sports from educational institutions, and then having everyone participate in what we currently call “Physical Education” instead of having PE for some and being a member of one of the school sports team for others. That has nothing to do with the question of whether that set of competitions should be segregated by sex - if we divorce it from schooling, it would remain segregated for fairness.

@thorny_locust

Did they do this for students with all other interests? If there were a dozen or two students who wanted an advanced-level-only gardening course, or advance-level-only sewing class, or whatever, did they get a classroom and a class period to have it in?

There were lots of electives: photography, architecture, woodshop, auto shop, various fine arts, graphic design, computer programming, etc etc… my school had a pretty long list of electives.

You couldn’t just announce your interest in underwater basket weaving and get a class created, but you also couldn’t just announce your interest in playing polo or rugby or any other sport that didn’t already have a team.

@thorny_locust

@DemonTree

School sports are a bigger deal in general in the US I think, and that outsize importance might be what @thorny_locust is objecting to more than their existence.

Pretty much true.

That sounds like a great topic for a thread that’s not about differences between the sexes. It sounds irrelevant here, because even if the competitive teams currently referred to as “high school sports” were instead independent club teams, the leagues would remain sex segregated.

@thorny_locust

I don’t know. Maybe they’ve quit doing it. When I check my local school district’s website, I don’t see PE, I only see athletics. When I click on athletics, I only see the intramural competitive stuff; which is telling in itself. I know people with children in the schools, I’ll have to try asking.

Athletics is another way of referring to what I’ve been calling “high school sports”. A school’s Athletics program includes all the various sports teams the school fields.

PE isn’t really part of the athletics program. It’s a class taken by students who attend the school, like Math or English or Social Studies. So I wouldn’t expect to see anything about it on the Athletics page.

@thorny_locust

When I click on athletics, I only see the intramural competitive stuff; which is telling in itself

What do you find “telling” about this?

To me, it’s “telling” about the structure of how schools are run: Varsity, JV, and intermural teams feeding into those are part of the Athletics program, so that’s where you’d see that information.

PE is a class offered by the school, so their course catalog (either the school’s or the district’s) would b where you’d find info about PE.

If there are extracurricular programs taking place at the school after hours, like the very casual (hey, what do you know, coed) tennis or basketball courses I did as a kid, then those are probably being put on by your city, or county, and you’d find that info on their websites. Or there might be a page for after school programs that use the facilities on the school’s page as well.

But there’s nothing surprising about a school’s Athletics program’s web page only talking about teams that are part of the school’s Athletics program…

[Babale]

@DemonTree

Is this still true? AFAIK the youngest poster here is @Babale and he has kids of his own. We’re not exactly getting an up-to-date view here.

I’ll let you know in about a decade when my daughter gets to middle school

[DemonTree]

@thorny_locust

That sort of competitive sports isn’t “of course” part of the school system.

It’s ‘of course’ that if you’re going to have competitive sports then it will only be for the top kids in each sport. Same as if you have a mathematics Olympiad, it will only be for the students who are best at maths (and the others won’t even want to join in).

@thorny_locust

It’s only distracting when you’re not used to it.

Teenagers are by nature not used to it, because they are going through puberty and all the feelings are new. They are often uncomfortable with their changing bodies, too. I wonder if schools allow more concealing outfits for PE these days?

@thorny_locust

And the boys being “more sporty in general” is probably rather circular – if the boys are always being selected out as being “more sporty”, they’re likely to continue to be so.

I went to two different primary schools, and at both, large groups of boys would spend every break and lunchtime playing football (soccer). Meanwhile us girls would mostly play on the climbing frame, play tag, or sit and chat. No teacher was organising this or telling us what to do. One girl would often play football with the boys, so it wasn’t like they were refusing to let any girls join in. I expect the same differences in activity happened after school in our free time.

When girls and boys make different choices of how to spend their time, should adults be telling them they are wrong and making them do something different? I’m not seeing it.

@Babale

I’ll let you know in about a decade when my daughter gets to middle school

Lol. My daughter has started primary school and does PE once a week. But it’s just running around and playing games because they are 4 and 5 year olds.

[Babale]

@DemonTree

I wonder if schools allow more concealing outfits for PE these days?

For us, boys and girls alike wore t shirts and knee length basketball shorts, in both middle and high school.

Girls had the opposite concern than what you mention, tying their shirts at the waist so they’d fit tighter (and sometimes to show midriff, although that wasn’t allowed and could get you in trouble).

Some girls cut their PE shirts short but that was even more likely to get you sent to the locker room to change shirts.

(I’m sure plenty of other girls appreciated the modestly loose and baggy t shirts we got, of course).

Eta: googling “high school PE” showed lots of pictures of kids in mismatched outfits, not sure what’s up with that; but scrolling through I eventually found this picture, which precisely matches how we dressed, and how all the schools I know of in my area dressed.

Oddly even in this picture most of the girls have the loose basketball shorts but a couple have smaller tighter pants. Not sure if those are provided by the school or if they’re just allowed to wear them. In my day at my school, that would not be allowed.

[DemonTree]

@Babale

Girls had the opposite concern than what you mention, tying their shirts at the waist so they’d fit tighter (and sometimes to show midriff, although that wasn’t allowed and could get you in trouble).

Some girls cut their PE shirts short but that was even more likely to get you sent to the locker room to change shirts.

I think that fits under ‘showing off for the opposite sex’. In the UK kids wear school uniforms, and the skirts were supposed to be knee length. They were never knee length. Mostly they were worn mid-thigh, except for a couple of years when long skirts were in fashion and we got in trouble for that instead. We were also not allowed to wear makeup, but many of the girls used to slap the stuff on with a trowel. The boys used to spray deodorant all over themselves in the classroom - on top of their clothes. Teenagers are weird.

ETA: your picture won’t load for me.