Note: All three points in the previous post are incorrect.
Mind elaborating?
I may not know much about Kabbala, but I know that Sefer Hazohar was written sometime in the middle ages. Is this not correct?
I also know that Judaism has a certain aversion to ascribing holiness to “graven images”, which would include a Magen David. Or can you direct me to the chapter in the Talmud which refers to the proper use of the Hexagram?
Look, I may have been oversimplifying. If you want to sharpen my points, then go right ahead - just don’t brush me off.
I’m just finishing a great book called “The Inquisition” just out in paperback at my downtown popular book store, in the history section. It’s an abreviated history of the Catholic church, focusing on their attempts to control the western world. It is quite scholarly,and doesn’t dwell too much on the horrific tortures, mostly on the psychological warfare of the Inquisition. I thought I knew a lot about history but this was fascinating. The Catholic church fought hard for centuries to keep Catholics ignorant and unquestioning. Their tactics were appalling.
This is not an anti-Catholic bash, but this was one horrifying book. The Masons were hunted down by the Catholic church, as were Jews. The Catholic church was torturing and killing people for thought crime right up to around 1840. The Italian army beat the Pope back into the Vatican in the 1860s or 70s and no Pope would exit and touch Italian soil until the 1920s, when Mussolini granted concessions - the official religion of Italy, blah, blah.
Anyway, this book mentions the Illuminati (a latin term coined by the church for certain scattered unorganized individuals on the Iberian penninsula who were pursuing dangerous (to the Catholic church) courses of thought and study and therefore to be singled out for “questioning” and elimination. It also mentions the Masons, detailing their founding and spread, and the efforts of the Catholic church to stamp them out.
Basically, thinking men banded together to form not-so-secret societies to encourage progress and philosophical development. Many rulers and nobility joined and would set up Masonic lodges in their palaces. Their bond with Judaism was that both were hated enemies of the Catholic church and both were interested in knowledge and progress. Possibly their greatest offense to the Catholic church was to take over international diplomacy from the church’s iron grip.
New age twits can have fantasies of mystical secrets and can pervert the customs of Judaism and the Masons all they want, it’s a free country, but there is nothing much secret or magical about it. The Shriners who wear those little fezs and ride mini-motor vehicles in parades are Masons, a trace of the noble Masons of past centuries who risked everything to bring progress and shake the grip of the Catholic church on all facets of life. The fezs are a symbol of eastern mysticism, hated by the Catholic church. There is absolutely nothing “occult” about the Masons and there never was.
Apparently, there were a lot of Catholic masons, including priests and bishops.
Anyway, not my personal opinions, just what I read yesterday and today in a good book.
Alessan,
The time of composition of the Sefer Hazohar is unclear. Most modern scholars believe it to have been written in the late 13th century, while tradition ascribes it to an earlier period (with later additions). But the origin of the Kabbala is from earlier periods by all accounts. The Sefer Yetzira and other works were composed at least 700 years before that, and it is likely that the kabbala predates the earliest written records of it as well.
There is a difference between not being holy and having no religious significance. A given magen david is not holy, but the form itself has been used in kabbalistic contexts. This is not recorded in the Talmud, but I’ve seen it used this way in later kabbalistic works.
You were far off base. And as you did not have any basis for your assertions, I did not feel it necessary to do more than deny them.
In general, it is not a good idea to just assume things based on an extremely vague knowledge of the subject matter and post them on message boards as established facts.
Thanks, Izzy. I really didn’t know any of that. If you want, you can blame the Israeli high-school history curriculum, which tends to view Jewish history between Bar Cochva and Herzl mainly as a big blank. I guess i should catch up on my reading.
Still, my basic point is correct. If the OP saw a Star of David but did not see any actual Hebrew writing, it’s doubtful that any Kabbala was involved - at least, not by anyone who actually understands it.
From the few books I’ve read on secret societies, they weren’t responses to anything but almost always formed in traditions leading back to mystery school occult systems. Furthermore, there are many links between the symbolism of secret societies, most likely (IMO) indicative of the first sentence more than a link between the schools themselves.
Admittedly, the philosophical conditions of Europe during the middle ages does not lend well to a solid history of the societies, and I don’t doubt that most societies have had to fill in a few gaps where records were destroyed. Even if they haven’t been creatively filled in, there aren’t going to be many (if any!) objective sources on the links, so I think we’re always going to be stuck with conspiracy theories on the matter.
I recommend “The Templar Revelation” myself, though it doesn’t have a lot to do with the specific symbols you menion, wishbone. Take the book with a grain of salt, as well, but there is an awful lot of interesting history there when read carefully.
I have never heard of a link between Mormons and other secret societies.
As for Cabala, you may want to dig into Aleister Crowley who was a member of several secret societies and AFAIK was heavily into Cabala.
Expert nitpicker checking in . . .
NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM does not mean “New World Order” - it means “New Order of the Ages”. A quick Google search on “Seclorum” yields this page, in which a Latin scholar debunks the “New World Order” mistranslation. (I came up with my translation before I did the search, so it isn’t just my opinion or just his.)
Well certainly not by anyone who actually understands it. But in this instance it does seem likely that the Star of David was being used because the people involved believed it to have some mystical meaning.
Wishbone makes assertions as though he/she is stating fact. When confronted with carefully researched facts by a thoughtful and true expert on matters of the Latter Day Saints, he ignores the facts presented to him.
It takes a big mouth to accuse a religion of in fact being a Satanic Cult. It takes a bigger ego to go on accusing that religion of the kind of smokey mumbo-jumbo that he laid out. It takes an astonishingly small mind to not be able to admit publicly that the statements made in one’s O.P. were inflammatory and off base to a degree. And sadly, it takes no mind at all to not have the good graces and manners to thank someone for pointing the way to some real facts.
This isn’t “Whisper Down The Lane”, it’s The Straight Dope. Wishbone, if you wish to impugn religions, then I’d kindly ask you to do it on another Message Board. I have learned a TON about Judaism from some members, such as cmkeller, and I’ve learned a TON about the Mormons from AbbySthrnAccent. To blatantly ignore good solid honest information that is offered to you, just because it refutes so brilliantly your twisted racist allegations, is so very small minded.
I for one will be extremely glad never to see your screenname appear around here again. This isn’t about blathering about one’s personal opinions. It’s ** General Questions**. You asked some, you got answers, you refuse to acknowledge same. Ignorance prevails with you.
Pity.
Sincerely,
Cartooniverse
The only difference between the Masons and your local Moose lodge is that the Masons require you to believe in a higher power. Is it all the fancy symbols that get people so worked up about the Masons? Man, ever seen an Odd Fellows lodge? They have enough symbols to choke a Mason!
I hate to nitpick, but “Novus Ordo Seclorum” means “a new order of the ages”, NOT “new world order”. I interpret that to mean the founding of the United States and its splitting from the colonial power represented a new order in government, but that’s up for debate.