What are working-class Americans so afraid of?

[brickbacon]

@xtisme

I said it was complex. However, the fact that he is black isn’t the ONLY reason he is considered a bit of an elitist by people…and the fact that he is black isn’t the ONLY reason some don’t want to vote for him.

He’s not considered an elitist because he is Black, but I think the reasons people peg him as an elitist are due in part to the role his race has played in his life, and the role race plays on society.

@xtisme

I think that his success has more to do with what and who he is than the color of his skin, if that is what you are getting at there. I think it’s admirable that he is successful in spite of the fact that he is black.

Sorry. My last post was awkwardly phrased. I’m not saying he did well in law school because of his race. Just that a Black guy who wants to do well (ie. President of Harvard Law Review) in a upper-crust, predominately White school must acclimate to their surroundings in a ways that can come across as elitist to some.

@xtisme

Certainly…guess what? It make white people palatable to other whites to. It helps hispanic people merge in (why do you think I tried so hard to lose my hispanic accent? I worked for literally years so that my spoken English sounds…well, exactly like your’s probably does, without a trace of hispanic lilt).

Yes, but it is not the necessary prerequisite it is for minorities, and in particular, Black people, to be successful.

@xtisme

To be sure…but here is the thing. He IS an elitist. The fact that he’s a black elitist puts him more under a microscope than some, but frankly most people who come across to blue collar types as elitists don’t generally do well in that crowd whether they be lilly white or black, brown or blue.

Here’s where we disagree. By the literal definition, you are right. But, “elitism”, just like the word “liberal”, means far more in political discussion than it’s dictionary definition. Does he think he’s better than (many) other people? Probably, or else he wouldn’t be running for president. Is he an “elitist” in political terms? No. He is not “out of touch” with the public, and has a far better grasp on what normal people go though than either McCain, or Clinton. This idea that a guy who just finished paying school loans a few years ago is more out of touch than two other people who have a net worth over $100 million, and have been rich and in the public eye for decades is laughable. When was the last time Clinton went anywhere without SS protection? Hell, McCain has his own plane. The fact that these charges even stick to Obama is truly astounding.

@xtisme

Why do you think folks like GW and Clinton try so hard to be ‘just folks’? Billy boy is a Rhodes Scholar for gods sake…yet he comes across as hillbilly, someone who you could play pool with or have a beer with. Personally I find that folksy shit repulsive when it’s so obviously an affectation…but then I’m an elitist too. Which would be who Obama appeals to me so much, considering I like the man, respect the man, and disagree with his politics.

Agreed. But could Obama really pull that off even if he wanted to? Without unimpeachable academic credentials, he would be dismissed as an intellectual lightweight. Since he has them, he is a highbrow egghead intellectual. If he weren’t as eloquent, he would be another face in the crowd. Since he is, he’s a smooth-talking empty-suit liberal. It’s a fine line that is even finer for a Black candidate. It’s easy for Clinton to get folksy. The accent local to where she is campaigning comes out, and she starts to build good will based on their shared whiteness. Obama cannot do that, EVER. He can’t be the guy you want to have a beer with because the people we are talking about (generally) don’t have beers with many Black people, especially ones named Barack . She can blend in and posture in ways that are virtually impossible for him to do. The other day, she had rally while standing in the bed of a pickup truck. :dubious:

I actually helped canvass for Obama in PA a few weeks back. Most of the canvassing was done in a working class Italian neighborhood in Philly. There wasn’t much outright hostility, but a number of the people I spoke to made it apparent to me that I was out of place in that area; that I didn’t belong. Before I had even said a word, it was clear to them that I was an interloper. That’s probably 1% what Obama has to face before he even opens his mouth.

@xtisme

Did I say it has ‘little to do with race’? If so then I misspoke (though I don’t recall saying that).

My apologies if I mischaracterized your position.

@xtisme

Honestly I think that the whole racial angle is a boondoggle and a way to look ahead for excuses if Obama doesn’t win (which I highly doubt myself…I still think he’s going to walk away with the thing, assuming he gets past Clinton). To my mind it’s a wash between people who are voting for Obama BECAUSE he’s black and those who won’t vote for him because he’s black. Which leave a lot of folks who are voting for him because they actually agree with his message, respect him and actually think he will make a good President. YMMV…that’s how I see it.

-XT

I don’t know about that. I still think he will win too, but it has been well established that a Black candidate will have a much harder time being elected. I don’t know if it is particularly meaningful to attempt to quantify the numbers of people who vote based on race (one way or the other), but I think it’s an important discussion to have in general.

[Belowjob2.0]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brickbacon
Do you think he, as a Black man, could have been successful at Harvard Law School without being an the type of guy he is? Being palatable to White people generally entails being fairly eloquent, intellectual, non-threatening, and affable. Those same characteristics are being used against him to paint him as an elitist. What choice did he realistically have? Obama couldn’t be Bush even if he wanted to because a folksy, ivy-league Black guy that cruises by with a gentleman’s C would be considered a token. You say it has little to do with race, but I think his race has largely dictated his public persona, who he is, and how people respond to him.
Obama is living in a catch-22. You said it well.
Reply With Quote

True. If he was more, “down home,” for lack of a better term, he’d be too threatening. (Not that he really knows anything about being down home.) But being incredibly polished and well spoken makes him threatening in another way.

It’s a catch 22 not just for Obama, but for black Americans in general.

[Belowjob2.0]

Most of the canvassing was done in a working class Italian neighborhood in Philly. There wasn’t much outright hostility, but a number of the people I spoke to made it apparent to me that I was out of place in that area; that I didn’t belong. Before I had even said a word, it was clear to them that I was an interloper.

You’re a braver man than me.

[elucidator]

I don’t have the metric for this, no way to quantify but…Obama doesn’t talk black, and I think that’s important. (Neither does his wife, for that matter.) If you were to listen to him on the phone, the mental image you might form would most likely be that of a white, educated, managerial class or above. He doesn’t salt his dialogue with Greek phrases or anything like that, or make obscure classical allusions…he simply has the cadences and accents of an educated white person from nowhere in particular.

I think this is a big part of what acceptability he does have amongst “whites” (whatever the hell that means anymore…) If you listen to him talk for a few minutes, you may not forget that he is AfrAm, but you’ll come a lot closer than if you hadn’t.

But, by the same, ahhh, token… It also serves to seperate him from whites who do have regional accents, its the voice thats “not from around here”, wherever you are. And this feeds easily into the “elitist” meme, because, as everybody knows, elitists are *always * “not from around here.”

[Carson_O_Genic]

@Mr. Moto

Some of these will run their cities honorably, but in a place like Pennsylvania where corruption is pretty much a way of life, most will behave like white politicians, line up at the trough, and shovel as many goodies as possible into the wards that gave them votes.

Barack,is that you?

[burundi]

@brickbacon

Do you think he, as a Black man, could have been successful at Harvard Law School without being an the type of guy he is? Being palatable to White people generally entails being fairly eloquent, intellectual, non-threatening, and affable. Those same characteristics are being used against him to paint him as an elitist. What choice did he realistically have? Obama couldn’t be Bush even if he wanted to because a folksy, ivy-league Black guy that cruises by with a gentleman’s C would be considered a token. You say it has little to do with race, but I think his race has largely dictated his public persona, who he is, and how people respond to him.

That’s a really, really good point. Obama will never be perceived as a “man of the people” by some folks, because he’s so clearly not one of their people. If he came across as a working-class black dude, he would not only alienate white working-class people, he’d lose a lot of his support among middle- and upper-class whites, too.

[Phlosphr]

@burundi

That’s a really, really good point. Obama will never be perceived as a “man of the people” by some folks, because he’s so clearly not one of their people. If he came across as a working-class black dude, he would not only alienate white working-class people, he’d lose a lot of his support among middle- and upper-class whites, too.

Right, and this outline pertains to many candidates over the years. Appealing to the widest margin of voters is key, but not a necessity. Clinton might appeal to white working class men and women but she may have a hard time getting a black woman to vote for her. Or conversely she may have a problem getting white upper-middle class men to vote for her. Obama appeals to white upper middle class folks but has a hard time with the blue collar folks. The question is which group outweighs the other? Does Obama’s appeal to young voters, upper middle class voters, and black voters make him stronger than all the white working class folks put together? How many of those white working class folks will actually vote for Obama, he’s not missing their entire demographic.

[Argent_Towers]

@you with the face

As it stands, what Wright actually ranted about wasn’t miles apart from this. His crime was that 1) he made blacks out to be victims instead of the poor and 2) he is black himself. This makes him a target that a class warfare-inciting, white minister wouldn’t be.

I have NO interest in Obama’s race, and even if he looked like Mika Kallio I still wouldn’t want to vote for him. But I think you know that the Reverend Mr. Wright (and just for the record, it’s supposed to be "the Reverend (x) - Reverend is a style, not a title) has done more than just “made blacks out to be victims” and be black himself.

ABC News found several racially and politically charged sermons by Wright, including his suggestion that past U.S. policies were partially responsible for the September 11 attacks, his statement, “God bless America… No!.. God Damn America…for killing innocent people…for treating her citizens as less than human,” and his assertion that “[t]he government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color.”

The first statement, about 9/11 - definitely will turn people off, but is pretty run-of-the-mill far-left rhetoric. The second one, though - HIV invented by the government? Pure crackpot bullshit.

It’s very easy to see why white voters (and black ones, if they’re sensible people who will judge a pastor by what he says and not by his skin color - you know, like Dr. King suggested) would be turned off by Obama’s association with this guy.

[Phlosphr]

@Argent Towers

It’s very easy to see why white voters (and black ones, if they’re sensible people who will judge a pastor by what he says and not by his skin color - you know, like Dr. King suggested) would be turned off by Obama’s association with this guy.

If they are sensible black people they will see the truth right? I wonder what sensible white people think?

[Looks in the mirror] - I’m a sensible white person, I’m not put off by Obama’s association with Wright. But that must mean I’m caught up in Obama’s good looks and he has mesmerized me with his oratory. What else could it mean?

Perhaps it means I do my homework before picking a candidate. Or it could mean I not only do my homework, but I look beyond the sound bites and media hype and see a man running for president who has the highest chance of actually becoming president than the other two. Perhaps I’ve been following Obama mildly since 2004 after his convention speech, and in early 2007 jumped full throttle on his campaign and have been very impressed with this young man’s ability to transcend racial divides and actually surpass the CLinton Machine.

You probabaly wouldn’t want to hear anything like that from a sensible white man though.

[you_with_the_face]

@Argent Towers

The first statement, about 9/11 - definitely will turn people off, but is pretty run-of-the-mill far-left rhetoric. The second one, though - HIV invented by the government? Pure crackpot bullshit.

I’m not denying that it is crackpot BS. Just crackpot BS that wouldn’t have been sensationalized as much if race hadn’t been a factor.

[you_with_the_face]

@elucidator

He doesn’t salt his dialogue with Greek phrases or anything like that, or make obscure classical allusions…he simply has the cadences and accents of an educated white person from nowhere in particular.

You could just as easily say that he has the cadencies and accents of an educated black person from nowhere in particular.

Just because someone doesn’t talk “black” (whatever that means) doesn’t mean they talk “white”. If I heard Barack on the phone and then saw him person, I wouldn’t exactly be falling out of my chair in surprise, in other words.

[Keweenaw]

Clinton is the familiar. Obama is a new face. If you were an adult during the first Clinton administration, you’ve know who HRC is for going on 16 years now.

Job growth was huge in the 90s, as well as economic growth in general. People remember these things. I’m not claiming the Clintons, particularly HRC, deserve credit or not, just that people tend to remember prosperity.

Blue collar folks are being hit particularly hard now. I don’t think it’s a case of fear of Obama, just nostalgia for better times.

[cosmosdan]

Just a note. My older sister, {mid sixties} made a comment in an Email months ago that seemed t indicate she thought Obama would favor black people and black issues. Surprised the hell out of me. I think the whole Wright issue has reinforced those type of doubts in people rather than put them at ease. That was the intention wasn’t it. I think Obama’s character is gradually winning people over.

I was talking to a friend who was convinced that it was right to be concerned about Obama’s connection to Wright. A highly intelligent non prejudice person. Fortunately I convinced him that the whole Wright issue was intentionally contrived BS that deserved to be rejected.

I can’t quite figure why latino’s seem distrustful of blacks. Any ideas?

[Hakuna_Matata]

@cosmosdan

Just a note. My older sister, {mid sixties} made a comment in an Email months ago that seemed t indicate she thought Obama would favor black people and black issues. Surprised the hell out of me. I think the whole Wright issue has reinforced those type of doubts in people rather than put them at ease. That was the intention wasn’t it. I think Obama’s character is gradually winning people over.

I was talking to a friend who was convinced that it was right to be concerned about Obama’s connection to Wright. A highly intelligent non prejudice person. Fortunately I convinced him that the whole Wright issue was intentionally contrived BS that deserved to be rejected.

I can’t quite figure why latino’s seem distrustful of blacks. Any ideas?

Well I keep hearing that, but don’t know the basis of it. I am Hispanic and I actually enjoy the guy. I enjoy the fact that he treats people as adults and doesn’t so far appear to be pandering. I am very moderate and frankly I would be okay with any of the three candidates–I have preferences, but none of the three are too far out there for me. I do think though that in my opinion both Clinton and McCain dropped in my book by the whole gas thing–I am insulted by their approach on it. Populist bullshit.

I keep hearing on the news that Hispanics don’t like Obama, but from my seat that isn’t the case.

[gonzomax]

Hispanics and blacks compete for the same jobs. That is the base for lower and middle class whites dislike of blacks too. They are easily convinced that programs like affirmative action make blacks get an advantage over them. They are resentful. They are easily convinced that blacks are a threat to their jobs and the ability to feed their families.
Then there are cities like Detroit that are under black political control for a long time. It is seen as an absolute mess. Who wants the nation to go that way. The fact that the tax base and jobs have been shipped abroad to make corporations even more profitable is not a big part of the calculus. The bright truth for many is that when blacks came in the city went down.

[RedFury]

@you with the face

I’m not denying that it is crackpot BS. Just crackpot BS that wouldn’t have been sensationalized as much if race hadn’t been a factor.

Indeed. If it wasn’t, why isn’t this crackpot BS on every news channel and or front page of the media?

The All-White Elephant in the Room

BORED by those endless replays of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright? If so, go directly to YouTube, search for “John Hagee Roman Church Hitler,” and be recharged by a fresh jolt of clerical jive..

What you’ll find is a white televangelist, the Rev. John Hagee, lecturing in front of an enormous diorama. Wielding a pointer, he pokes at the image of a woman with Pamela Anderson-sized breasts, her hand raising a golden chalice. The woman is “the Great Whore,” Mr. Hagee explains, and she is drinking “the blood of the Jewish people.” That’s because the Great Whore represents “the Roman Church,” which, in his view, has thirsted for Jewish blood throughout history, from the Crusades to the Holocaust.

<snip>

Mr. Hagee, it’s true, did not blame the American government for concocting AIDS. But he did say that God created Hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans for its sins, particularly a scheduled “homosexual parade there on the Monday that Katrina came.”

Mr. Hagee didn’t make that claim in obscure circumstances, either. He broadcast it on one of America’s most widely heard radio programs, “Fresh Air” on NPR, back in September 2006.

Where’s the outrage?!

[you_with_the_face]

@cosmosdan

I can’t quite figure why latino’s seem distrustful of blacks. Any ideas?

Anti-black racism is quite prevalent in many Latin-American countries. Remember, slavery and colonialism was practiced there, too.

[gonzomax]

I hope Obama is an elitist. I hope he spends time coming up with new and innovative ways to deal with our problems. I could care less if he bowls well. I hope he gets the best and brightest to work on solutions. Bush has not striven for anything resembling that. He has been in a mad race to have the system looted by those who need it the least. He spends human lives with impunity. I find him unprincipled . Obama does not share the experience of the wealthy chosen elite. He is bright and speaks well. That will be a welcome change by itself.