I’m gonna cross. The cars better get the fuck out of my way. New York’s a walking city: drivers are lucky that they are barely tolerated. Walk/Don’t Walk signs are guidelines. Shit, the other day I jaywalked in front of a cop unwittingly and he didn’t even bat an eye.
It’s part of the culture. Pedestrians are the upper class, and we will fight hard to preserve that privileged status. Bitching about pedestrians in New York is about as futile as bitching about the movements of glaciers.
I wouldn’t particularly mind having “I was in the crosswalk” on my tombstone. I’d prefer something like “last man standing,” but it works almost as well.
Yeah, well, I walk in NYC all the time. And regardless of what the more magnanimous posters think, I realize that in a battle between me and a car, I will lose. Therefore, while I do occasionally ignore walk/don’t walk signs, I try not to just walk out in front of cars. I use those two incredibly complex and useful organs called eyes. If a car’s coming, I slow down and try to assess whether I have a chance of crossing without becoming a grease spot.
Just because you think you are part of some “upper class” doesn’t mean that you can abandon common sense and assume everyone’s gonna graciously yield to your dumb jaywalking ass.
Oh, please. I’m not going to cross fucking Park Avenue at 6PM in the middle of traffic. That was clearly not my point. Sorry if the hyperbole was too much for you to handle.
Man, this just happened to me this morning again. Some dumb parent and their baby stroller, just waltzing across the crosswalk while I had a green going straight, and then a different character who didn’t even check traffic before sauntering out on the road.
I am seriously worried sometimes about killing someone because of this. I would genuinely hate to live with that on my conscience.
Just moved to Seattle from NYC. I can’t get used to the boldness of pedestrians here. They literally step out into the road as if they know you’re going to stop. The rules of pedestrianship are so different from what I grew used to in NYC, a city where pedestrians move in rational ways. I can’t get used to it. I’ve had two or three close calls with Seattle’s blockheaded pedestrians since I moved (only one month ago).
This is inherently risky? Why?
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Escalators are actually quite easily and safely navigated with an open stroller, IMHO. Technique is important, but I execute the stroller/escalator manuever flawlessly. Admittedly, the first time you try this trick, the stroller does move in strange ways, but once you learn how to handle the mount and the dismount, riding escalators is simple as bean pie.
Sidewalk cracks, potholes, subway ventilation grates, plus any number of other obstacles. I guess you’ve never seen someone hit one of these and tip their stroller over? I’m suggesting that if you do this at a higher speed, you’re putting your kid at risk.
Choosybeggar, if I ever have kids, they’re not going to be allowed to hang out with you. Haven’t you heard the horror stories surrounding things (like pieces of feet and hands) getting sucked into escalators? Don’t you think it’s risky to try to balance your kid’s stroller on an uneven surface when there’s a risk you could topple over and seriously injure yourself or your child? Don’t you think there’s a reason why every escalator has a big warning label that says “NO STROLLERS” on it in red letters? Sheesh.
See, and I would have said just the opposite, and I moved here to Seattle recently too (and am familiar with NYC pedestrians from having lived out there for a while as well).
My perception is that Seattle pedestrians almost always cross at the light and with the light. In fact, it struck me so much that I asked my coworkers about it. They said that a couple years ago the Seattle police department started handing out very hefty tickets for jay-walking in the downtown area, and though they aren’t as rigorous enforcing that law anymore, you still run the risk of a serious fine if you’re jay-walking and a cop (having a bad day) decides to ticket you.
That said, in my limited experience the tourists jay-walk constantly, especially around Westlake Center and the Seattle Center (Space Needle).
So you mean jogging with a conventional stroller? Yeah, I’d agree that they aren’t stable enough for jogging. But a jogging stroller, now we’re talking about an entirely different breed of beast. No terrain is too tough. They are built for speed, stability and safety (mine is a two-seater and has has a handbrake, reflectors, five point harnesses, and an orange flag on a high pole). I only use it away from vehicular traffic. BTW, my kids love the ride. Surely you have no objections.
Choosybeggar, if I ever have kids, they’re not going to be allowed to hang out with you. Haven’t you heard the horror stories surrounding things (like pieces of feet and hands) getting sucked into escalators? Don’t you think it’s risky to try to balance your kid’s stroller on an uneven surface when there’s a risk you could topple over and seriously injure yourself or your child? Don’t you think there’s a reason why every escalator has a big warning label that says “NO STROLLERS” on it in red letters? Sheesh. **
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Yeah, and I drive 65 in 55 mph zones, too. So there’s a warning sign, what of it? It’s there because one way that folks injure themselves and their kids on escalators is by leaving the kids in their strollers. But how great is the actual risk? Is the sign posted to prevent a common mode of needless injury or reduce institutional liability in the rare event that someone comes to harm?
I found an article here that discusses injuries to children riding escalators (it also discusses injuries to children riding tractors, in case you’re interested:)). Anyway, the article discusses hand and foot injuries to kids on escalators (which you mentioned), and it turns out that these don’t occur to kids in strollers. Such injuries often occurred as a result of a fall, slip or trip of a free-standing tot, and were much more common than stroller related injuries (see page 10 where they report that 27/109 injuries occurred secondary to getting a body part caught in the escalator, 15/109 were secondary to walking/running on an escalator, 35/109 were secondary to “other” causes, while only 7/109 were secondary to taking a stroller on the escalator).
Admittedly, we do not know the percentage of event-free stroller trips versus event-free trips with free-standing young-uns, but this is not crucial to make an important observation: the overall burden of injuries to free-standing children is much greater than injuries to stroller-bound kids. This is not to suggest that strollers are incredibly safe on escalators, but instead, the results suggest that if you believe that strollers shouldn’t be allowed on escalators, you sure as shit should be against ANY child being taken on an escalator. The confounded contraptions are moving metal stairs of death. But you probably aren’t going to sheesh everyone that takes their tots on the escalator, just poor lil’ ol’ me and my stroller.
That said, in my first post I was careful to explain that the first ride on an escalator with a stroller holds a few surprises. The transition from the mount (flat stairs) to the ascent/descent (formed stairs) results in the stroller being rocked back (going up) or pitched forward (going down). To counteract this tendency, one balances the stroller on the front wheels (going up) or back wheels (going down), maintaing the stroller on a level plane. The only other difficulty is in the dismount. Many strollers do not handle bumps well. When you get off the escalator it is imperitive to lift the front stroller wheels over the uneven area where the moving steps dissappear, lest you risk tipping your precious package.
Trust me when I tell you that the above manuevers are mind-numbingly straightforward. Escalators move very slowly and in an exquisitely predictable fashion. Once you’ve learned how to handle a stroller on an escalator, my educated guess would be that you are at no increased risk to injure yourself or your child compared to a standing parent-child couple. I want for statistics to bolster this point, but sadly, the study has yet to be performed.
I should clarify. I wasn’t referring to pedestrians at crosswalks controlled by a traffic control device. In these situations, Seattle’s pedestrians are indeed remarkably demure. No, I was talking about crosswalks in parking lots and other areas which lack traffic control devices. In these circumstances I find that the average Seattlite will step into the road with nary a care about the three thousand pounds of steel bearing down upon them. And they’ll get pissed as hell if they were within 10 feet of entering the crosswalk and you failed to stop.
Choosybeggar, just keep doing what you’re doing. Natural selection helps improve the quality of the species. Dunno why I’m arguing with you when I can just let your kid get sucked into the escalator and let you learn your own lesson.
That’s a little rough, THespaz. I didn’t think we were getting to the take the gloves off part yet (that doesn’t always happen in the pit y’know).
I take exception to the notion that you are arguing with me. So far the only “argument” you have presented is:
True but irrelevent to the issue of kids in strollers being injured on escalators, as such injuries are sustained by free-standing kids.
As I explained, this is not nearly as difficult as you paint it to be. Given my explanation of how to safely bring a stroller onto an escalator, I’d like you to explain where all this extra risk is. In essence what you’re doing is keeping the stroller level. On ascent, the stroller’s front wheels rest securely against the step in front of them. On descent, the rear wheels abut the stair to their rear.
There’s even a sign!!! Doesn’t qualify as an argument since you haven’t enlightened us, THespit, as to the origins of this sign.
And finally:
Don’t see how this addresses the issue of risk a’tall.
So you see, THispot, IMHO you are welcome to criticize my behavior. However, if you wish to make an “argument”, you need to include these little pesky things called facts and salient points to bolster your position. Oh I know you’re snorting to yourself and thinking this is a slam-dunk no-brainer, but howsabout lets see some hint of intellect behind your arguments in the future.
In counterdistinction to yourself, I [list=a]
[li]tried to assess the level of excess risk incurred in taking strollers on escalators. What I learned from this exercise was that escalators are indeed dangerous. However, the overwhelming majority of children injured while riding escalators are free-standing children. And I know there’s no sign prohibiting free-standing kids from getting on escalators, but don’t you now feel that there should be?[/li]
Described a technique for riding escalators with strollers which, IMHO, is foolproof and does not create a situation of increased risk of injury to myself or my kids. Y’know, THisputz, we all possess a magnificent talent for learning new motor skills. As such, I have taken full advantage and now safely and comfortably ride the escalators with a stroller in tow.
Choosybeggar, it’s not my fucking job to tell you how to raise your kids. If you want to leave your kid in the stroller and take him up or down the escalator, that’s your business. I’m only reserving the right to call you a biscuithead for doing it. Given the forum, you shouldn’t really get yourself so worked up.
That said, lemme try to appeal to your common sense once more…
Choosybeggar, I’m sure that the last time you heard about a tragedy involving an escalator, it probably had something to do with a kid getting something caught in the moving parts (typically a shoelace or a pants leg or something along those lines) and then having a body part sucked into the escalator’s innards. Think that can’t happen to a stroller? Well then, you go on telling yourself that.
And I don’t care what the “Choosybeggar Stroller Method” says. If you’re balancing your stroller on the steps of a moving escalator, what you’ve got there is an inherently unstable object. Taking a spill on an escalator isn’t like falling down the steps at your Mom and Dad’s place. The edges of the steps are sharp and metal. Wanna take a chance with that? Be my guest.
I am continually amazed by this reasoning: DO NOT TOUCH; SURFACE IS HOT! “Well, heck, they probably didn’t put that up because the surface is hot or anything, they probably put it up to ‘reduce liability.’ Think I’ll find out myself if the surface is hot.” News flash: Yes, warning signs are intended to reduce liability; they are intended primarily to reduce liability by reducing injuries by advising people not to do things that may be dangerous. That, is after all, the most effective way to reduce liability. I’m continually amazed by people who assume, because they perceive no danger, no danger must exist, and they, with their Joe Average intelligence, surely know more about equipment than the people who designed and tested it.
There are several reasons why it is a bad idea to take an open stroller (baby in it or not) on the escalator. First, if the baby is not strapped in (which means, of course, the parent is a moron) it could fall out and a parent behind could not stop it. Second, even if the baby is strapped in, the parent still cannot reach it if it becomes distressed for any reason. Third, strollers can and do jam the escalator if people are not paying attention; the floor is moving one direction and the walls are moving the other (in relation to the floor). Jam the escalator with a stroller and the force will either break the escalator or break the stroller – and there is no guarantee the stroller will break in a way that it safe for the baby within it. Fourth, people negotiating with strollers create a safety hazard for other people getting off and on the escalator, but especially getting off. You may think you are perfectly able to take the extra ten seconds necessary to disembark safely with your stroller, but where does that leave the rest of the people behind you, besides backing up the stairs as they wait for you? Even if you consider the risk to be worth it for yourself and your baby, you are not entitled to make that decision for everyone else you may be inconveniencing or perhaps endangering.
FWIW, I am not a rabid opponent of stroller restrictions on public escalators. In fact, I’ve always, and still do feel that as a matter of public policy, the issue is a no-brainer: restrict use of strollers on escalators.
However, my reading of the literature reveals that escalators are a significant hazard for children irrespective of whether they’re in strollers or free-standing. In the article I cited, over a 2.5-year observation period somewhere in British Columbia, they observed seven injuries to children related to strollers on escalators versus 102 injuries that did not involve strollers. Now even if kids in strollers are a small fraction of the total number of kids riding escalators (and therefore are involved in proportionately fewer accidents even if they have a higher overall per trip rate of injury), the fact remains that 102/109 injuries observed in this study had nothing to do with strollers. Is the restriction of escalator travel for all small children so onerous that as a public policy initiative it is a no go? Why? Would people think to themselves,
“You know, the inconvenience of riding the elevator (slow, hard to find, crowded), is not worth it to avoid the slight risk I incur when I take my free-standing 6 year old on the escalator. Besides, I do everything possible to minimize the risk of injury to my child; I keep a close eye on them, I hold their hand, I instruct them on when to step off. Why do I need the hassle of the elevator?”
Is such a statement sooooo unreasonable? In essence, this is the argument I make to you. I have learned to take a stroller on an escalator in a manner that I deem safe. If the “choosybeggar stroller method” could be studied, I have every confidence that its well-trained practitioners would not incur significantly more risk of injury for themselves, their fellow travelers, or their children. I doubt this should be surprising as escalators move slowly and predictably.
In fact, I wish I could find a study that looked at the rate of mishap in taking strollers on escalators as a function of pilot experience. There is not a doubt in my mind that safely conducting a stroller on an escalator can be learned and that such a study would find a preponderance of accidents occurring the first couple of times someone tries to take a stroller on the escalator.
Bear in mind that this is not related to an argument like, “I don’t need to wear a helmet,” or, “I don’t need to wear a seatbelt,” since in not wearing a helmet or seatbelt one does nothing to decrease one’s risk of accidental injury. What I’m saying is, “I use the CB method and therefore can safely take my kids on escalators in their strollers.
Do I look worked up? I don’t feel worked up.
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To be honest, I’ve never “heard” of an escalator tragedy. I only am aware of the medical literature on the topic. I’m not saying that injuries can’t occur to kids in strollers, I’m saying that careful application of a simple technique enable me to obviate those risks for my children
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If you position the stroller in the center of the escalator, for the majority of the ride, one is not “balancing your stroller on the steps of a moving escalator.” Instead, one is resting either the front or back stroller wheels against an adjacent step while maintaining the stroller on a level plane. There is little physical agility necessary. And I agree that I wouldn’t want to fall on an escalator, either (although I’m not so hot on the idea of falling down the steps at my Mom’s place either).
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I’m offline currently, but I’ll check it out later **Just looked. They recommend no strollers. We’re not surprized. They present no data. We’re not surprized
A deli in the area of NYC I lived in installed a new glass display case for hot foods. The owner (who I know) put warning stickers on the glass front cautioning customers not to touch as the surface was hot. However, the surface of the case never gets beyond warm. His explanation for the warning: it keeps people from touching the case and getting it full of fingerprints. Your point about the role of warning signs is well taken, however. My point is that there may motives other than injury reduction that motivates their posting.
I never stated that I perceive no danger in taking a stroller on an escalator, but rather that learning to conduct a stroller safely on an escalator takes some reasoning, and some experience.
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I agree that not strapping a child into a stroller under any circumstance is a bad idea.
I don’t get the part about a baby becoming distressed and requiring attention while on the escalator. What kind of distress are you anticipating and how long are the escalators where you live? I can’t imagine anything common enough to care about in a healthy child that requires that kind of immediate attention.
Point taken about things going wrong on escalators when people aren’t paying attention. With the stroller centered on the escalator, the wall motion relative to the stairs is never an issue because they aren’t ever contacted
I’m at a loss as to the hazard you describe that strollers pose to other folks. When I mount an escalator with a stroller, it takes me no more time than if I was by myself and considerably less time then when my kids are walking with me. The same goes for dismounting. I don’t know where your “10 extra seconds” figure comes from but in my considerable experience, leaving an escalator with a stroller takes no more time than leaving it solo (just lift the front wheels over the threshold and walk off) and, as with mounting, takes less time with my child in a stroller than with them holding my hand.
CHOOSYBEGGAR, I see little profit in attempting to have a discussion with you about the wisdom of attempting to take a stroller on an escalator. You have no data to back up your assertion, whereas there appears to be ample indicia that, your opinion, to the contrary, a stroller on a escalator is not a good idea. I’m frankly at a loss to imagine how I could change your mind, and don’t care enough about the topic to even try.
I will say, however, that it seems to me to be only logical that if a warning is posted against doing a given thing, the most likely reason for the warning is that doing the thing in question is Not A Good Idea. I have seen many people with a mindset such as yours – I can disregard warnings because I know better, or because I don’t see the need for them – who have been injured, with various degrees of severity, as a direct result of their willfulness. But you can only advise people not to act stupidly; you cannot prevent them from doing so.
Yeah, things are dragging. Nobody seems to be budging even a bit.
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Depends on which assertion to which you refer. I have asserted that free-standing children riding escalators sustain 10X more injuries than stroller-bound tots. That assertion came with evidence.
I also assert that is is possible to learn how to safely negotiate an escalator with a stroller and have detailed a method which I developed for this purpose. For this assertion I have no epidemiological data, but I have provided ample mechanistic data which dispel, IMHO, the concept of an escalator ride fraught with risk.
The main arguments I make to this effect are:
[list=1]
[li] Many escalators injuries occur secondary to someone not paying attention to what they’re doing. I focus my attention on the task at hand.[/li][li] Escalator are not fast-moving, unpredictable beasts. No split-second timing is required to ride them. You just need to know what to do and do it.[/li][li]Practice makes perfect. I don’t know why I can’t sell you this argument as we experience this phenomenon all the time. Do something over and over and you improve. Sometimes gains are realized rapidly, sometimes at a more gradual pace. Given the utter simplicity of riding an escalator with a stroller, improvements in technique are rapid. I have taken strollers on escalators hundreds of times. And I’m not trying to use that statement as verification of the safety of my technique, as I already admitted that I lack epidemiological data to bolster my position. Merely, I seek the teeniest admission from you that after so much time on escalators with strollers, I might know a thing or two about how to perform this trick safely[/li]
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My last post began as follows:
What part of that statement is eluding you? And while I’ll allow that evidence exists demonstrating that strollers do create a hazard on escalators, none has yet been presented here. No matter, though, because the type of evidence you would need to disprove my assertion (that one can learn to negotiate an escalator safely with a stroller) won’t be available.
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Hint: come up with evidence that I’m wrong. Do something wild and creative that would prove for all time that riding escalators with strollers is so difficult and so dangerous that a jack of all trades guy with a passable understanding of engineering and physics couldn’t possibly teach himself how to perform this feat safely.
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Here’s where I’ll make you feel one tiny bit better. I acknowledge that trying to take a stroller on an escalator the first few times was stupid and irresponsible. IMHO, as I’ve already stated, a risk of injury does exist, but (and hopefully you understand this is the point about which I differ with you) with repeated attempts, I believe the risk of injury falls rapidly to what would be a generally acceptable margin.
PS If you are tiring of this, I understand completely. Without an infusion of fact, there’s not much reason to continue. Nice debating with you, though.
