Well, if he’s going to do it by making the Statue of Liberty disappear, he’s going to have to do with without a moveable stage, a frame, and draperies.
On a more serious note, it depends on the definition of God. I know your definition is on the unconventional side and I’m not sure I understand it fully, so I cannot say what evidence would be required to make me believe in the same god as you. But in general terms: describe the god you believe in, and I can say what evidence I would consider sufficient.
The biggest problem for me is that I don’t consider knowing something to be adequate alone for belief. So the easiest way to do it, to just “make” me know, wouldn’t work (well, it probably would. But i’d like to think it wouldn’t).
I guess really it would need to be shown to me that the way the universe works and so on can only (or is much more likely to) work because of a deity. So basically, I would have to be convinced that a) there aren’t any other explanations, or that there are but they aren’t as good as b) an explanation which necessitates (or is very likely to use) a god. Also an absence of evidence that mean the god in question couldn’t exist.
I dunno, but I assume if there is a God, and he feels the need to prove himself to me, then he’ll know my heart and mind, and know exactly what it will take to prove his (or her) existence.
And if it’s Zeus, he can just change into a golden rain and knock me up.
The only “challenges” I face are being handed Lee Strobel books and threatened with gifts of Kent Hovind videos, which even Liberal should agree is pretty fucked up.
Well, I still don’t see much of a debate, but I guess if agnostics and atheists want to have a bit of witnessing time explaining why the other does not “get it,” we can tolerate that in GD.
What strikes me about the overwhelming majority of on topic responses, so far, is that there is very little evidence of actual outright persecution of folks for failing to believe. There has been some evidence that people have been harrassed for failing to believe the “right thing” and there have been regional pockets of intolerance, but most of the stuff has been limited to localized work conditions or family and they do not seem to be much different than the same things I have witnessed within work places and families where the target of harrassment has been a good religious person of the “wrong” religion.
I am not claiming that there is not a pro-religious bias in this country, with stupid state constitutions limiting certain public offices to believers and some large number of voters refusing to vote for unbelievers, but I have not seen any evidence, here, that atheists are generally treated poorly in day-to-day life for their personal convictions.
Can’t tell the in-laws about one’s failure to believe? The same thing happens all the time when a Christian brings home a date, fiance, or spouse of the “wrong” denomination or a Christain or Jewish person brings home a Jewish or Christian date to a more conservative believing family.
Get proselytized at work? It seems pretty rare, even in this thread, but it is as likely to be aimed at Jews, Catholics, or the “wrong sort” of Protestants as atheists or agnostics.
Don’t like the hoopla around Christmas or Easter? Much of it irritates Christians, too, and it really is not much different than being in a nutty sport town when a local team is winning* or being indifferent to sports in the run up to the Stuporbowl.
(I’ve never seen a company demand that its employees dress up for Christmas or Easter, but I have seen orders that people wear sports regalia for some favored team. Of course, I’ve seen similar demands for Hallowe’en, and Hallowe’en has always been an anti-religious holiday, silly retroactive claims for Samhain notwithstanding.)
Which is not to say that Liberal is unable to detect or admit to other fuckupedness, I was referencing his call to defend theism a few posts back against the atheist’s barrage against theists in this thread…
As rare as it is that I agree with you about the level of persecution of Christianity here, there aren’t enough raiseable eyebrows in the world to respond to this:
Ghanima, you and I have obviously not been reading the same Board.
OTOH…
I didn’t see that. I saw some specific examples of rude/crude/stupid faithful people, but I don’t recall seeing a post where anybody attacked the entirety of faithful people as rude/crude/stupid. We really do show quite a bit of restraint considering how the invisible-man-in-the-sky stuff seems to us (well, I do, at least), and it’s a bit of a downer when all you get in response are loud cries that merely being an atheist and stating one’s opinion is an affront and an insult to the Righteous Christian World. It seemed to me like we were having a nice little thread to ourselves before the Persecution Patrol jumped in and started nailing their hands to the wall.
Like others, I wouldn’t say that my atheism has presented me with any “challenges” any more than my lack of belief in vampires has.
However, I’d be lying if I were to say that I don’t feel the urge to “convert” the religious to an atheistic viewpoint. From my perspective, a lot of people centre their lives around something blatantly nonsensical. But, out of respect, I make no attempt to challenge people’s beliefs.
Occasionally I get pulled into philosophical “debates”, that are nothing of the sort, and experience has told me to walk away (although I can’t resist pointing out straw man arguments), but it’s hard to do.
See, that’s the thing about us atheists. We look just like everyone else. At least the blacks and Irish had the good sense to look different, so you didn’t have to get to know them before you could hate them.
Well aside from everyone around me just assuming that I believe as they do, being saturated with messages in the media that involve religion (from the news reporting on a new bishop in the city to every TV show this time of year having their whole ‘Jesus is the reason’ specials to the fact that the newspaper has an entire religion section devoted to bible-thumping), the constant endorsement of monotheistic belief by the government, the battles for religious monuments inside courthouses, the nativity set on the public, town owned land which was paid for with tax dollars, and having my coworkers tell me that they think only a complete moron could be an atheist…
There’s always the fight against those who want ‘Intelligent Design’ taught as fact in public schools.
Evidence of what, exactly? If you want to jump in, responding to a straw man, I suppose that is your right, but your litany of complaints makes you no different than any number of theists who suffer the same problems–and my actual statement, (and I don’t see anyone else who used “evidence” in this context), was that outside specific regions I saw little (not no) evidence of actual persecution.
Oh noes! The news reported on the appointment of a bishop, (the administrator of a major corporation in your locale). I am sure that no one ever reports the appointment of any CEOs in your community.
I’d be curious to see what shows actually pay any attention to the “reason for the season” topic. I don’t watch a lot of TV, but what I pick up from shows my daughter watches while I fix dinner has rather little to do with the Nativity and, IF they address the issue at all, more about love and family at this (generally unnamed) time of year.
The newspaper has a section devoted to religion! gasp It also has a section devoted to sports and a section devoted to fashion and sections devoted to all sorts of thing in which I have no interest. Those sections make great blotters for spilled water and I never actually open them, since they have a banner proclaiming their content at the top of the first page.
The battles over putting the commandments in public buildings and nativity scenes on public lawns are offensive to religious people as well as non-religious people, so it is hardly unique to your situation.
Intelligent Design is also opposed by many religious people.
As to your co-workers, you appear to be in a minority in this thread, although I will admit that that harrassment is irritating–just as the harrassment that Jews and Catholics and Mormons suffer is irritating–but I don’t think it rises to the level of actual persecution.
So, since the only claim made was that there was little evidence of actual persecution (aside from the bar on public office already noted), why are you responding to a non-existent claim of “no evidence”?
I have to agree with tomndebb…I mean, I guess you could consider being in a cultural minority to be a “challenge,” but it seems like a bit of an overstatement. It’s one thing to be actively discriminated against on the basis of being an atheist, but to have to live with being surrounded the trappings of Christianity is just a part of not going along with the mainstream. That happens to people all the time for all different reasons. Where I live, I’m part of a tiny minority in terms of my politics. Where I work, I’m part of a tiny minority in terms of my religion. The fact that my community at home is so out of step with my thinking can be a little annoying sometimes…it is absolutely true that when people are in the majority, they get an over-inflated view of the “rightness” of their opinions and make assumptions that everyone thinks the same way. But I wouldn’t call it a challenge so much as a minor annoyance.
I’ve been an atheist (or agnostic, if you prefer) all of my adult life. Never had a problem with it in any way. I don’t go out of my way to exclude myself from religious holiday events, though, so I’m happy to celebrate Christmas (which is mostly secular these days anyway) with presents and things even if I don’t go to Church. I have no problem attending religious wedding ceremonies, and I was happy to say “Grace” yesterday with the family I had Thanksgiving dinner with. To me, a thin veneer of Christianity is part of our culture in the US, so I just go with the flow. If I’m at a Jewish ceder, I’ll put on a yarmulke for the same reason. If they’re OK with my participating in their religious ceremony, I’m OK being there and don’t feel that I’m compromising myself by doing so. I don’t seek these things out, but don’t run away from them when I find myself part of such an event.
Pretty much what John Mace said. I’ve never had a problem being an agnostic (which I’m informed is just an atheist without convictions :)). Some in my family occasionally try and change my mind, but mostly people leave me alone. Of course, like John, I don’t go out of my way to torture the religious types…I’m a live and let live kind of guy. I respect their view point, even while I disagree with it…and I pretty much demand like treatment. And in general I get it too.
…because it seems so very innate for a human to want there to be more-- To believe that all the pain and suffering and joy and triumph has a meaning greater than ourselves or our species.
Well I wanted father Christmas to be real for a long time but it just ain’t so. Personally I think focus on the afterlife detracts from this one. We can’t know whether there is an afterlife or not whereas this one we do, so surely better to focus on the here and now and not think about what will happen after we die (which we also can’t avert in any way so equally not much point worrying about).
