My best friend/coworker is afraid to out me. . .

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
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as an atheist.

And he’s gay, which makes it extra ironical - or absurd, or just plain funny, depending on how you define “irony” (jeez, I really should change my username so I can completely misuse the word “irony” like everyone else :)).

Back story: Over the past few years, I’ve developed more and more of an atheist worldview. I don’t want this to go into great debate territory, but let it suffice to say that my feelings are summed up well in this post from a few months ago.

While on IM with my friend today, I showed him this article (the one about the atheist placard posted next to the nativity scene in Wash. state), and we began a lively exchange over the context and delivery of the atheist message.

At some point, we got into discussing the social stigma that atheism carries - I pointed out that it seems almost as bad as the stigma that homosexuality carries with it, since at least where we work (an office of around 250 people near Portland), several people, including my friend, are openly gay with very few problems, yet I know of no one who has ever admitted to being an atheist. And I know quite a few of my coworkers very well, after 8 years of working together, in a very social workplace where few topics are off limits for casual discussion. I suspect a few of being atheist, but it just seems to be a verboten topic, so I’ve never verified it.

Anyway, at this point in the IM discussion, my good friend (who’s a Quaker, by the way) pointed out that he’s been very careful not to let on to any of our mutual work acquaintances that I’m an atheist, whenever the topic comes up. That stopped me in my tracks. The gay man. . . afraid to out the atheist.

When I got home I told my wife about his response, and she just said “yeah, I can get that.” I thought she’d find the whole idea funny, but she just looked a little sad when she said it, which got me thinking.

While I’m trying to take it in good humor, it really hit me today that it’s frankly somewhat depressing to feel that one needs to hide a significant aspect of one’s worldview, for fear of the reactions of others. I suddenly realized that I am part of a minority that is not entirely accepted in my community - while my neighbors can go on about their church, and slather their cars in religious bumper stickers with impunity, I’m afraid to put a simple Darwin fish on my car for fear of getting keyed. I’m not going to start singing “We Shall Overcome” any time soon, but it’s a very odd feeling to have suddenly sprung on you.

Edit: on review, I should point out that I’m not trying to compare my experience as an atheist with the civil rights and social equality struggles that racial or sexual minorities face. I’m just prattling here. . .

I’ve been looking around for some kind of local or national “atheist support group” that might be able to provide some guidance on how to deal with publicly disclosing atheism, but they all seem to be affiliated with Richard Dawkins, whom I feel is an A-number-1 douchebag. Oh well.

So have any other non-believers had similar experiences dealing with disclosing their non-belief? How have you handled it?

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  1. Social stigma for atheists? Is everyone wanting to be a persecuted group these days? This seems a bit reaching.

  2. Where do you work that the religions of fellow co-workers comes up often enough for someone to worry about it?

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If the topic has never come up, how do you know that they’d react negatively, especially if they’re at least progressive enough to accept homosexuals?

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Pretty much everybody at my workplace talks about whether or not they’re going to the Santuario every year before Good Friday. Although it only comes up once a year, I’m quite sure a lot of people who walk the pilgrimage remember specifically those that don’t take it. It’s quite hypocritical, but isn’t that what the Catholic church was founded on? I’m pretty sure most people I work with don’t know I’m agnostic, but I really don’t care.

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Well, to answer question 1, please see my edit on my OP: I’m not comparing the stigma I fsense in any way shape or form to the greater civil rights struggles - for one thing, I can simply keep my mouth shut about my non-belief, while one’s race cannot be hidden, and hiding one’s sexual orientation requires an enormous sacrifice.

However, past experience has shown me that I have to be careful to whom I admit I am an atheist - hell, if our site VP at work (an upright, conservative, very Christian guy) knew I was an atheist, I would likely find myself at the top of the list next time we have a reduction in force. And while I hesitate to use Wiki as a cite, what the hell, we’re in MPSIMS (for now, anyway) - here’s some pretty good info on institutional discrimination against atheism: Discrimination against atheists - Wikipedia.

Regarding question 2, I work in a tech firm (our office is mostly sales). It’s not as if folks come up to me witnessing, or demanding my religious affiliation, but you’d be surprised how often the topic of religion comes up - anywhere from discussing weekend plans to political debates. Like I said, it’s a pretty social group we have so there’s always some kind of debate or another.

I’ve mentioned my non-belief with casual acquaintances or strangers before outside work (in what I believed was an appropriate manner) and have almost universally gotten a very standoffish response from those folks who haven’t professed atheism themselves.

And the two times I’ve admitted as much in work situations haven’t been any better: One time when I worked at our Eugene site, I was invited to go to a coworker’s church function for Easter, and after stating “I don’t go to church”, she said “maybe now would be a good time to start”, to which I politely said, “Well, I’m atheist”. She then looked visibly disgusted, and stormed off without another word - to this day, she still won’t make small talk with me, even thought I still work with her on remote projects occasionally.

The other time, it was in a group of about 10 folks (mostly from other companies) having a political discussion around gay rights (at a user conference in San Francisco of all places, just after Prop 8 got passed) - and in a group of mostly like-minded liberal individuals, I was asked what I thought, and in explaining my position, said something like “Well, I’m atheist, so I don’t really have any kind of ideological imperative to deny anyone their rights.” At the moment I mentioned the word atheist, I could see expressions visibly change - like I’d flipped a switch. Oddly enough, one lady came up to me later, and mentioned that she was atheist too, and we kind of continued the conversation in the corner, but in an almost conspiratorial manner, like we were hiding something.

You know, the more I read this, the more it chaps my hide. If you think I’m reaching, let me point something out: My children’s public school sanctions belief in god via the Pledge of Allegiance - “one nation, under god”.

Just try to tell me they won’t be stigmatized if I have them to sit outside the class during the Pledge, or even the half-assed solution of just not saying the words “under god” out loud. You think other kids wouldn’t notice? They can be pretty damn observant and merciless when it comes to something that sets someone apart, especially at my oldest daughter’s age (8). I’ve seen it first hand when I was in school, both with atheists and Jehovah’s Witnesses. Those kids got called everything from commies to satanists.

And so I sit here, typing this, defending my claim that my non-belief carries a stigma (albeit relatively small, as I’ve already stated), all the while knowing that every Monday, my children are participating in a ritual that affirms the supposed existence of a mythical entity that is offensive to my worldview, and damaging to my right to raise my children in the way I see fit, and with the belief system that I prefer.

And I keep my freaking mouth shut about what I see as a fundamental injustice, because I love my children more than anything in this world, and don’t want to expose them to the pain that I’m confident they’d face from the so-called “faithful”, if only I stood up for my god-damned rights.

Don’t you tell me I’m reaching.

Mods, if this needs to move, feel free to do so.

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If it chaps your hide, perhaps you should mellow out a bit.

Ooooh, you’re scary when you’re angry. Still, you’re reaching.

I’m not exactly a “believer” myself. As a strict believer in the separation of church and state, I’ve defended the atheist point of view to many people… a lot of them devout believers. Even in a debate situation while explaining how what they want goes against the rights of others who don’t believe what they do, I’ve never had someone flip out on me. And let someone else’s beliefs get me frothing mad like the little display you’ve put on here? Not on your life.

I don’t care what your beliefs are, there are certain people who will give you shit about them. Do you honestly believe any other religion wouldn’t offend Mr Upright, conservative, very Christian guy? Don’t kid yourself. Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, anything that’s not their way of seeing it. If you got someone who is a strict follower of the bible, it’s all the same to them. Being an atheist doesn’t make you special to them.

You’ve got to be kidding me that you think children look around at other children during the Pledge of Allegiance. Seriously, you think that? They’re saying it and wanting to get it over with just like everyone else in the room. Sending your kids out to the hall would be YOU making them different. Standing and saying the Pledge without “under God” wouldn’t even be a blip on a child’s radar.

In most workplaces talking about political debates and politics are taboo. Perhaps your HR department should be informed? I mean, if you’re willing to send your children in the hallway to take a stand for your atheism, wouldn’t it be at least worth your time to send (anonymously if you like) a notice to your company’s HR department if this bothers you so much?

Why would you choose to share this information with these people anyway? The woman who asked you to go to an Easter function. What was wrong with saying “Oh I’m sorry, I can’t make that?” it was you who chose to make it go to the next level. Should she be asking you to religious functions at work? No, but people do a lot of inappropriate things at work, do you really want to up the ante on all of them? Even her response of “maybe now would be a good time to start” could be deflected by looking a bit shocked and replying “Wow, what a thing to say!” and walking away. It seems like you want to prove a point of being an atheist. I’m not saying you should be ashamed or have to hide it, but why would you want to take part in any “iffy” topic at work, anyway?

You must know some really sensitive people to have so many people visible recoil when you speak of atheism. I was raised in the midwest where they love God, Mom, and football and I’ve maybe witnessed this type of thing twice. I’m not saying it doesn’t ever happen, but to behave as if anytime you mention atheism people are reacting as if you said “I’m a devil worshiper” is just bizarre. Maybe you’re on the defensive? You certainly got your ass chapped here pretty quickly by me questioning a social stigma.

Perhaps you might consider ways of avoiding unprofessional topics while you’re at work. If someone asks you “Don’t you go to church?” or something equally as rude answer them with a smile and “I don’t like to talk about religion.” There are lots of ways to get around these traps without going headlong into a situation that could escalate. Wouldn’t it just be easier to avoid it?

So, move this to the pit if you feel you can’t have a civil discussion about it. I can’t imagine why you’re not able to discuss such a thing without swearing and excessive insulting, but it’s your thread.

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It’s the simple truth. Fundies are no better than al-Qaeda, and in a lot of ways are 100 times worse. I enjoy telling them that to their faces, too. Their reactions are priceless.

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When I told the mods feel free to move this, I meant to GD, not the pit - I hope it doesn’t get that bad. I made a valiant effort to keep the OP fairly lighthearted, non-GD material, but it’s obviously not staying that way - thankyouverymuch.

And yes, at least when I was in school, children looked around during the Pledge, and they noticed when others weren’t fitting in (then again, I grew up in a fairly more conservative area than I now live in, which may be informing my reactions somewhat, but I certainly haven’t been living in a vacuum since then). I can think of two kids (a JW brother and sister in different grades) through my elementary school years who wouldn’t recite the pledge, and they caught no end of crap for it - they were the ones that got called satanists.

And say what you will, but I firmly believe I have a fundamental right not to have the government dictating religious discourse to my children. Sure it’s only two words - but it’s the worst two words I can imagine: “under god”. So every week my children get the message that they are subordinate to a mythical supreme being - that, in the words of Eisenhower when he signed the bill adding “under god” to the Pledge - “millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty.” That is a downright offensive concept to me.

Yet as an atheist, if I were to take any action to preserve my fundamental rights, even at a school board level, my name gets plastered all over the papers and TV. No thanks - my kids don’t need that.

And regarding discussions in my workplace, like I said, I’ve only brought up my beliefs to coworkers twice, in casual settings, and never at my current worksite - and frankly, I firmly believe I was as tactful as I could be in both cases - if you knew me, I try to be as deferential as possible when speaking in person. And while the nature of political discussions amongst coworkers at my current site would sometimes warrant presenting an atheist viewpoint, I refrain, due to past experience.

And as for reporting them to HR - like I said in the OP, I’m not humming civil rights tunes and dialing up the ACLU here. I’m just pointing out that my worldview is not accepted, while that of a Catholic, Jewish, or other religious persuasions are much more so accepted. Hell, we’ve got a Muslim who wears a skullcap (not sure what it’s called) and has openly discussed his fasting practices during Ramadan. And the boss-man loves him - I think it’s the whole dedicating yourself to your faith thing he really gets. And I think I’ve already made very clear that I no longer discuss my beliefs at work (despite fairly frequent opportunities to do so).

As for me still reaching as regards an atheist stigma, take a look again at that wiki article, specifically the section on state constitutions. Fully 7 states have current religious tests that exclude atheists. Granted Torasco in 1961 de facto invalidated them, but these are state constitutions we’re talking about, not simply laws on the books - and a couple of them were amended after 1961 to include religious tests. I’m pretty sure most states purged their constitutions of discriminatory clauses on the basis of race and gender after the Civil Rights Act and suffrage, respectively - so what’s so much worse about non-believers that we don’t deserve the same protections?

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I agree with CPofI. I’m from South Carolina where the vast majority of people are Christian. If you’re ANYTHING except their definition of “Christian,” many (most) of them will look askance at you at minimum, as if you’d just sprouted a third eye. Some will try to “save” you, but most will just stop talking to you. Butterflies should conduct an experiment, if s/he dares. Tell individuals that you’re anything but one of the Christian sects (including LDS and Catholic), e.g., Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, atheist, whatever, and see if their attitudes do not change. Maybe there really is no stigma where Butterflies lives, but there sure is in SC!

So, yeah I can see CPofI’s friend not wanting to out him before he is ready to out himself. I think that’s pretty darned considerate of him.

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It’s nearly impossible to be elected to office as an “out” atheist because large sections of the populace think you can’t possibly be a good, moral person if you don’t believe in god, heaven or hell.

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I’m an atheist, and I agree with Sleeps With Butterflies, to be honest. (This reminds me that I recently saw a guy walking down the street wearing a t-shirt that said “Sleeps With Butterflies”. I did a double-take.) I tell people I’m an atheist whenever the topic of personal belief comes up (which it rarely does in an office setting, but I’m back at school right now where things are less formal) and I don’t think anyone has ever treated me differently because of it. If they have, I didn’t notice and don’t care.

I think that I am very respectful of and interested in other peoples’ religious beliefs might make the difference.

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I am a lesbian and an atheist.

I am very open about my sexual orientation, and so far nobody at work has given me grief about it, although I am only the second openly gay person to work at this company.

It took me nearly a year to tell anyone I was an atheist, and yes, I have now gotten the definate “cold shoulder” from a couple of people. I’ve been told that my opinions on marriage, ethics and morals “don’t count”.
I am much more fearful of hostility in the area I live in for atheism than for sexual orientation. In our social climate these days, not being a Christian equates with being a terrorist. I’ve even had people scoff at me for being a pacifist!

Editied to add: I am living in a conservative area, and for one of the first times, working in a more traditional job field. (Fastener distribution, versus education or native plants or animal training) I was never afraid when I lived in a more liberal area.

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In some areas it’s safe. In other areas it isn’t. Despite the inaccuracies of the “red state, blue state” model, there are parts of this country that are more conservative, and less accepting of non-whatever religio-racial mix they are than other parts.

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I think its nice that your friend is respectful enough of you not to out you to your coworkers if you haven’t outed yourself or told him its ok to. I’m “outed” ever so slightly at work as the wife of an atheist and a non-Christian (I’m a Deist) and frankly, it was the stupidest thing about my life I’ve ever made public at work. Yes, it has resulted in me getting treated differently - fortunately only by one person with any power - but if there were a majority of people like him, or even a strong minority, I’d have screwed my career with the company with that information - as it is, his group is very difficult for me to work with - and only his group.

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Actually, polls have shown that Americans distrust atheists, even more than they distrust members of other religions. The thinking is that at least members of other religious groups believe in a supreme being and derive their morals from religion - whereas those atheists are “against” that.

Cite:

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Crown Prince of Irony - move to Europe. You don’t have to put up with that shit here.

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Your head is in the sand. There was a survey conducted a few years ago and over 50% of the people said that they wouldn’t vote for an admitted atheist.

I lost a friend when he found out that I wasn’t a believer. He is a Turkish Muslim who was cool with me being a Jew but not an atheist. I only told him because we were friends and he respected me and he said that non-believers couldn’t be moral.

It’s not like I’m walking around feeling constantly persecuted but there is a considerable amount of prejudice against atheism.

I agree with this point. It’s a topic that should be avoided in the workplace for sure.

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One more thing. Check out the requirements to join a fraternal organization like the Elks or whatever. (Don’t get me wrong, I have no interest in such things.) They almost all have a requirement that members have to believe in God. You could easily lie, of course, and some members probably wouldn’t care but that rule sure won’t get amended.

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I have come out as an atheist at two workplaces; both times my co-workers denied I was really an atheist. One told me I was really just a non-believer. I asked him what the difference was and he swore there was one, but he didn’t know what it was. I should have added, but didn’t, that non-believer is the definition of atheist. The other co-worker told me I was really agnostic. FTR, the first co-worker was a junior pastor at a church and the second was a Mormon. It baffled me that they told me I wasn’t really an atheist, as I would never claim they weren’t really a Christian or Mormon. Then I realized, that to them, atheist means anti-religion, not non-religion. The two walk hand-in-hand sometimes, but are not the same thing. I am not overtly hostile to religion or religious people, partly because I used to be one. I think we need an atheist awareness campaign to show people that atheists are normal folks who just happen not to believe. Many people have wrongheaded ideas about atheists and don’t realize that the person sitting next to them in traffic or in the next cubicle might be a non-believer. BTW, like the OP, I live in Portland.

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If I dare? Are you joking? Dramatic much?

I was raised Catholic. During my undergrad years I did the “searching” that a lot of people do. During that time I spent a lot of time at the Zen center and identified as a Buddhist. I found that people were curious and a few were a little “whaa!?” at me, but I managed just fine. There was also a time that I considered myself an atheist, although now I realize I was probably more agnostic. Yes, occasionally people would want to witness to me or question me, but Maybe I care a lot less about what people think of me than some folks, but it’s hardly “dareworthy.” I’m not a shrinking violet that I can’t handle people who have a difference of opinion. I would discuss it with them to a point that if they became angry or obnoxious about it, I’d move on. Why waste my time getting angry about someone else’s point of view? I don’t expect anyone to agree with my beliefs and I don’t agree with a lot of their beliefs. It’s a big deal if you make it one.

All that may be true, but there are a lot of ignorant people in the world and I don’t care what most of them think of anything about my life. I sure don’t care what they think about my beliefs. That’s why I never get into discussions here about religion. Sorry, but discussing (fighting) about something that nobody can prove either way is nothing I have an interest in.

Nope my head is not in the sand, I just don’t agree with you. In the US we had a majority of voters who re-elected Bush so I tend to think that people’s reasons for voting are mostly based on odd reasons anyway. I’m sure those people wouldn’t vote for a Muslim or Hindu either.

And as trite as it sounds, doesn’t sound like you lost much of a friend to me.

The OP talked about feeling as if his job might be as risk if they found out at work he was an atheist. My point is that there are lots and lots of ways to avoid that situation. If you’re into BDSM, would you feel the need to talk about that at work if people are talking about relationships? Of course not.

I’m not saying this about the OP because I do not know him, but a lot of people truly love to argue. I used to be one of those people. There are still topics that I’ll debate the point of arguing, but only in certain situations. I’ve found that as I get older (and hopefully a little wiser) that it’s best to avoid situations where people are going to get heated about a topic unless you’re in an environment where it’s “save” to have spirited discussions. It’s really not hard to avoid it if you just pick up a few phrases to turn a discussion around. If that’s too much avoiding for the general “you”, then go for it, but don’t be surprised if you get singled out.