I’ve only worked in two places where religion was even discussed. I made it clear in both places that I am at best an agnostic.
It was never a problem. I remain friends with many of those people today.
I totally agree with this. If you’re singled out for being an atheist at work, it could be because you’re stupid enough to bring it up inappropriately in the first place.
Sure. No one has to trumpet their beliefs or lack thereof where it could cause a problem unless they want to be persecuted. Some people live for that.
You said earlier that there isn’t a social stigma for atheists. That is what I disagree with. You must disagree with it too or you wouldn’t be describing how and when to avoid the topic.
That’s fair. I guess I just don’t see it to the extent of what the OP describes. I do think some people want to feel persecuted or part of a group of people that have to “fight” to just be.
I do not know the OP and don’t remember reading anything from him before. Unfortunately, I’m like that . I tend to forget who says what unless what they’re saying is something I really agree or disagree with, so this isn’t a personal thing. I just think sometimes in certain situations you are in complete control of how much trouble or crap you land in.
I think the response depends a lot on region, as someone mentioned earlier. In my area/line of work, I sometimes get shit for being a theist. If you can’t imagine why, see below.
I’ve no doubt that being an atheist can make one a target in other areas.
This Gallup may be almost a decade old, but it’s where the idea comes from. http://www.gallup.com/poll/3979/Americans-Today-Much-More-Accepting-Woman-Black-Catholic.aspx
Personally, I hardly ever have a problem (or rather, encounter problems). I do get an awful lot of double takes, though. It really depends on what “circle” I’m in. Higher academia (colleges & universities) usually pose no issues. Elsewhere, it just depends on who’s in your circle. And specific details of religion may not come up, but, if there are “Jesus Tags” (crosses, saints, pictures, scripture, etc.), there can definitely be a sense of religion, even if no one’s actively witnessing.
I do have a sister-in-law who used to try to convert me on a regular basis. After one too many conversations where I knew more about the book she “follows” than she does, she’s given up on me though.
You could always try the Brights. I know Dawkins is involved, but he’s not a major player, IIRC. Or you could just do as I do: be you. When someone finds out eventually, they’ll either a.) not care and never would have, b.) decide that you’re a decent person (in spite of your views) and possibly re-evaluate their world-view c.) decide you’re an immoral infidel and must be purged (from their social life). No real loss for the c’s.
I find it odd that in Portland of all places, the OP is concerned about being outed as an atheist, unless he’s worried about being harassed by crystal waving new agers. Here in Santa Barbara (Same town as Hajario) I’ve never done anything to attempt to hide my lack of religious beliefs, but I don’t go out of my way to have confrontations with the devout. Of course, once someone starts proselytizing, all bets are off. That said, I guess it makes sense to avoid discussions of politics and religion at work. I know very few people who go to church, and being irreligious is the default condition of most of my acquaintances.
Yeah, you know, I get the impression you still are one of those people. Do you always come into MSPIMS and start this kind of crap?
There’s a reason I didn’t post this in GD, or in the pit. I wasn’t making any grand proclamation (“Atheism discrimination is evil - discuss”), or flaming anyone (“F**king Believers!!!”) - I was just simply providing context around an incident (a gay man afraid to out an atheist) that brought home the realization that I am part of a group that is not accepted by a significant percentage of the populace. And after 36 years as a white, privileged male, having rarely known any kind of social stigma or discrimination, that kind of realization was a bit unsettling, so I felt it worthwhile to share.
Well, that’s exactly what I’m trying to point out - in my personal experience, religious folks (especially Christians, but even Jews and Muslims where I work) feel little compulsion to turn the discussion away from their faith, whether it’s a casual reference to their faith (“you wanna go out for lunch, Corey?” “No, I’m fasting for Ramadan”), or a bold assertion (“what did you think of Prop 8?” “I’m Mormon, so you can probably guess”). Both examples are ones I’ve personally witnessed in the past couple years, and no one seemed to think that the declaration of faith itself was particularly uncouth.
Past experience has shown me that I don’t have that same latitude, that I do need to turn the discussion away from my non-belief, and, again, that’s part of my central assertion - that there is a social stigma attached to publicly declaring one’s atheism (casually or formally) that simply isn’t there with most other religions.
However, like I said, I work at a site that is a pretty tightly-knit, and socially comfortable group - it’s not uncommon to hear pretty wide-ranging political or social discussions in the lunch rooms, or in cubicles, or at corporate events. I rather like that aspect of where I work, which is why I’m not on a crusade to throw my non-belief in everyone’s faces, or to push the issue with HR if I feel slighted.
It’s not like I’m calling my coworkers bigots - I like most of them, even if I know my non-belief would turn many of them off. So I would still rather be able to socialize, at the expense of keeping my non-belief private. But I say again, do the religious feel compelled to make the same sacrifice? No. And that’s what it boils down to - back to the irony of the gay man afraid to out the atheist, which was the catalyst for all this.
While I’m glad to see such a great discussion around this topic - Sleeps, it seems you’re trying to make a lot more out of this than I did. But hey, if you want to imagine me running around being some kind of atheist proselytizer, or some kind of civil right crusader, whatever floats your boat.
As for those who actually responded to the question in the OP, with their personal experiences coming out as atheists, thanks! It’s good to know there are others who’ve been in the same boat, and it’s absolutely great to know that people have disclosed their non-belief with no problems.
Thank you! Good to hear from another PDX’er. I at one time believed as well, and so I am as respectful of others’ faith as possible. That’s why I’m no fan of Dawkins.
While I’m in the Portland area, I work in Beaverton (about half our staff lives in PDX though) and I live in Forest Grove. I thought FG would be a bit more liberal than it is, what with Pacific University and all, but it’s a pretty conservative little burg - I’ve got Catholic neighbors with small statues of saints in their front yard, and I’ve got neighbors on the other side with pro-life and Jesus stickers on both their cars. I’m pretty sure I’m never telling any of them I’m atheist. Although I’ve been flirting with the idea of a statue of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in my front yard. 
And JustAnotherGeek, I looked at the Brights, but I couldn’t get past the icky elitist connotations the name “Brights” carries.
My dad and stepmom might be your evangelical neighbors then. When I go visit them in Forest Grove I usually stay the weekend. They used to invite me to church and I would politely decline. Then one Saturday night, I added “I’m an atheist.” My stepmom went off a little. I thought they already knew my beliefs, but apparently they did not. My Biblical scholar brother knew before they did and we have had some great talks about faith, religion, etc. My bro may be religious, but he is also a PhD candidate.
Huh - small world! I’m right at the north edge of town (right where B St. dead-ends). Although the neighbors I speak of are around my age.
Re: your brother - some of my smartest friends are religious. And it’s usually the super-smart ones whom I feel more comfortable discussing issues of faith around - they tend to be able to take the more objective view and set personal belief aside. That’s why I don’t like the term “Brights” - I know plenty of bright people who are believers.
For Og’s sake, whatever you do, don’t tell chowder. Poor guy’s been through enough this week.
I’ll make sure to put a pointy hat on the FSM statue, just for chowder.
Maybe things have changed since you were in school. Some teachers don’t even have the students say the Pledge any more. Those that do are supposed to be attentive to any problems that result. Can’t you teach your children courage by having them try leaving out the words “under God” and reporting back to you what happens? If there is any problem at all, they should let the teacher know and you too. You should talk with the teacher and let him or her know that you absolutely will not tolerate it.
The way it is now:
- You think that people are unfairly prejudiced against atheists.
- You won’t take a stand because you may be mistreated.
- You seem to be borrowing trouble. Maybe you are a little prejudiced against non-atheists.
- Until you take a stand or make a statement, you have no one to blame but yourself for your situation.
You seem to be in a huff about what may happen. I’m not saying that it won’t happen.
I am a Christian. When one of my friends told me that she and her husband are atheists, I sent them a Christmas card. It showed a tent out in the desert with Middle Easterners standing behind a table with some food items for sale. The sign above the tent said, “Cheeses of Nazareth.” They loved the card and it let them know that my sense of humor was intact.
I am opposed to ceremonial references to God as in “In God We Trust” on money. I have not liked the change in the Pledge since in was made. I am opposed to anyone leading a prayer in a public school – at least while I am present. (I have walked out.) You may have more in common with some Christians than you might think.
Why place responsibility on your friend? Either out yourself or simply tell people that you prefer not to discuss your religious beliefs at work. You may have to repeat that line several times. And you don’t have to explain to anyone why you prefer things that way. That can save you a whole lot of trouble.
But quit blaming everybody for persecuting you and your children until they do.
Nope! Even the feds kept discriminatory clauses that discriminated against women. I can’t speak with authority about African-Americans. I just know that women couldn’t get into the military academies, for example. And we still could not pass an Equal Right Amendment. There is nothing in our Constitution that specifically protects us from gender-based discrimination.
Don’t give up the very freedom that others can’t take away from you.
Yeah, I was going to mention that and I forgot. I refused to say the words “under God” my entire elementary school career, and nobody ever said diddly-squat to me. When I got older I started leaving out the “with liberty and justice for all” bullshit too. Nobody ever noticed, or if they did, they kept their mouths shut.
I have to say that my experience has been the same as the OP and after my initial experiences, I’m very careful now about who I tell.
Irony, I think you are overreacting a bit. Sleeps with Butterflies was just expressing her opinion. There is no reason to assume she is a dedicated troublemaker, just that she has an opinion that’s contradictory to yours. I think you are perceiving a personal attack where there was none. While your OP seems reasonable enough, your response to Sleeps with Butterflies makes you sound like a militant atheist. Those people aren’t any more fun than militant Christians. ‘‘Under god’’ are the two worst words you can think of? Really? I’m an atheist myself and that kind of rhetoric puts a bad taste in my mouth.
As a Buddhist I try to avoid religion or politics at work as a result of a couple instructive expeirences. At a restaurant where I worked in college I was surrounded by some pretty hard-core Christians who interrogated me about my religious beliefs until I told them I was Buddhist. They really weren’t capable of wrapping their minds around the concept at all and started singing hymns whenever I was around (which is funny, because I happen to love hymns.) At a different place of employment, my Muslim employer didn’t understand Buddhism either, and asked me if I worshiped the moon. I found that particularly funny because one of the pervasive myths among Christians about Muslims is that they worship the moon. There’s nothing I can do about other people’s ignorance except stay out of the way of it.
This may add to your evidence that atheists are subject to discrimination, but I used to be a devout Christian, and I guarantee you there is an equal amount of discrimination against Christians in this country. All it really means is that humanity likes to discriminate and will pretty much invent any reason to do so. It’s not explicitly related to you being an atheist. It’s explicitly related to your being human. I’ll admit I sort of laughed at the OP, not because I don’t think your perceptions are legitimate but because I find it funny that someone would be so shocked and dismayed to realize that some people might possibly at some point in the future discriminate against them. It happens. Fortunately for you it has happened in a way that isn’t likely to affect your life circumstances, especially if you chose not to make it an issue henceforth. Unlike, say, black people, you have the option of avoiding discrimination altogether by choosing who you reveal personal information to.
WRT ‘‘under god’’ in the pledge, why do people care about this? It doesn’t really affect anything. Just have your kid omit those words from the speech and he’ll be fine. As a person without any fixed perception of god my biggest concern are government policies influenced by religious thought, such as the gay marriage banning bullshit. I’ll stand up and fight for real injustice. But words in a speech? No way. I’m sure your kids would get teased if they chose to leave the room during the pledge, because it’s completely unnecessarily drawing attention to themselves in a sanctimonious way. If they just stood there and didn’t say those words, or the pledge at all, I doubt anyone would really care.
I’m sorry if you’re unhappy with some of the responses you are getting, but there’s no real way to create a thread like this without it turning into, if not a full-blown debate, at least a frank exchange of contradictory views. The ideas in question are very much worthy of such a debate if you ask me.
They get shunned by their classmates. I have two children, my daughter is a nine year old Unitarian atheist who leaves God out of the Girl Scout Pledge (which Girl Scouts - unlike the BSA - is fine with) and out of the PoA in school. (I lead her Brownie troop and replace God with Spirit). And the teacher can do nothing about her being shunned on the playground for her lack of religious beliefs. Is it wrong, sure, her teachers in the past have agreed its wrong. But they also cannot make children play with each other.
(My daughter is learning that God as a ceremonial word is kind of like saying “I’m fine” when someone asks “How are you?” when you have a tummyache - its polite. Its an odd distinction for nine - and since my daughter, like a lot of atheists I know, is very bright, but overly literal, its difficult.)
Trust me, I understand. When they first came on the scene, I thought, “great! here’s a bunch of people having the same opinions and problems that I have” Then I thought, “geez, that name ain’t gonna win over anyone…” Which is why I now simply do what I mentioned up thread about just being me. It works.
But again, this has a lot more to do with where in the country you are than you give it credit for.
When I was in grade school, my best friend was a Jehovah’s Witness. He stood when we did the pledge, but never put his hand over his heart and never said the words (he mumbled something, and he told me once, but I forget). No one ever bothered him about this. Instead, even just felt bad he didn’t get Christmas or birthday presents.
By the time we got to high school, everyone may as well have been atheist anyone for all anyone knew about the religions of others.
Liberal Minnesota - not the Bible Belt by a long shot. My daughter isn’t even the only atheist in her classroom - though she is the only one who outed herself.
I suspect in addition to the part of the country, the makeup of the individual class itself makes a huge difference, as well as the personal charisma of the child.