Exactly. Which is what makes the OP’s claims pretty pathetic as he has no idea how people would react to his or his daughter’s atheism. He’s getting himself all worked up over perceived slights, which always chaps my hide.
Ridiculous. If nothing else, in such a Christian dominated country as America sheer numbers and power would make that impossible; there aren’t enough non-Christians with enough power to discriminate that much even if they were all trying.
This is America; it’s a reasonable assumption that they would react with hostility, distrust and possibly violence.
I’ve been thinking about it since reading this thread, I have to admit I have never outed myself at work for this very reason.
At least half dozen people have asked me to attend their church, my office has prayers over damn near every special event we have. I’ve started showing up late for all of them over the fear I will be asked to lead one, as the dept heads started taking turns leading them.
As far as work is concerned I will just stay in the closet thank you.
Violence? Jesus Christ, do you listen to yourself half the time? It must be fan-fucking-tastic living in the fantasy world you’ve created. You’re the center of attention of a countrywide hate movement that has operatives around every corner out to get you.
You know, I believe our chimp-in-chief has used the same rationale for all of his idiotic anti-terrorist policies.
When I was 15 my grandmother (hard core Christian) got the idea that I would be better off as a Christian. She knew what my belief was and hated it. She’d give me the belt just for being an Agnostic. I believe there is a stronger power out there, but I’m not going to say one religion is right or wrong, so I do not believe firmly in one or any religion. Whatever… My belief.
Her being uncomfortable with this led her to a solution to my “problem”… And that was this place known as Camp Tracey. What is Camp Tracey? The way it works is simple. Your parent/guardian writes you off and whenever they see fit you can leave, or until you are 18. My mom being a Christian, not hard core, but a Christian, went along with my grandmothers persuasive argument and signed me up without my knowing.
So here I am, the summer of 02, supposedly taking my annual vacation to Orlando. I’m in the car with grandma (she lives in Florida), who is driving. We end up pulling onto a dirt road and onto a huge ranch. This is Camp Tracey. We pull up to a large group of kids (All boys. Girls were separated from us. We weren’t allowed NEAR or to even LOOK at the girls. Nor were we allowed to speak with ANY girls while at the church unless they were much older and deeply involved in the church. Or a family member) and a few adults. I’m told to get out of the car.
After a few hours I realized where I was. It was a children’s home. When I say children’s home I mean a slave camp. But there was a twist to this place. They were all hard core Christians and they had “good” intentions. I would learn how to work and I would become a Christian. Yes, you heard that right. They will basically force you to become a Christian or you will be getting the shit end of the stick and all hell for your entire stay there. Yes, that means getting your ass beat, carrying buckets, crab walking, duck walking, running extra, a shitty place to sit at the lunchroom, etc.
I realized this within about a month of being there. How do I get out? Work my ass off and play by the rules. Yes, I had to bullshit my way out of there. I didn’t want to spend my entire teenage life in an institution for no fucking reason other than “not being a Christian”. Fuck that. I have the right to believe whatever I want and I sure as hell won’t be getting my ass beat because I’m not following along with your beliefs.
After 6 months I had these ass holes wrapped around my finger. Yes, it took a while, but I got there. And for the next 8 months I had things going pretty well for me. I was number one in this place, had authority, privileges, all that good stuff. When I say number one, I mean literally, in their eyes. There were monthly “evaluations” done by all of the employees and wherever you fell in that’s how you were treated. Should you be scored low on your “Religious Belief” or whatever they called it, you’d be shit on until you became a “born again” and started following all of the common practices like public prayer, singing in the choir, etc. By the time I was out of this place I almost thought I had become a Christian. Nearly brainwashed myself.
Anyway… If you think quoting 2 words in a pledge is bad try imaging what it’s like having to memorize and recite scripture from a book several times a day in front of others and the entire church when you do not believe in what you are saying. I think it’s better if you play along with it (or not even mention your non-belief) because if you don’t the religions of the world will ridicule you, and if they could, they’d probably want to beat you into submission until you become a believer of their religion.
Our beliefs should be a secret within each of us but that will never happen.
If you want to preach to me values, so be it. I think that some of the values religions/non-religions preach are great to have in life, but don’t for one second think you can change what I believe. Just because you think you are right, it doesn’t matter, because you only think you are right. You don’t have any right to force someone to believe what you want. You sure as hell don’t want me to be forcing you to follow another religion so leave me the fuck alone. Let me believe what I want and you believe what you want. Keep it to yourself.
So as for brainwashing the youth at a young age to believe in whatever you believe in, I downright think that is bullshit to the highest extreme, whatever belief it may be. They should be the one’s to decide that. Teach them good values but give them the RIGHT. I mean, that’s what it is, isn’t it?
Look at it this way: If your gay friend weren’t already out as gay, would you have outed him without his permission? Almost certainly not. Why should it be surprising if he extends the same courtesy to you?
Regardless of whether there is or is not persecution against atheists, your religious views are something that you might want to keep private, and if you do choose to keep them private, it would be rude of someone else to make them public. You clearly haven’t chosen to make your atheism widely known, and your friend knows this, so he chooses to go along with your wishes. What’s the odd part, here?
Yes. It’s a hate movement called “Christianity”. And they’ve been “out to get” me and every other variety of unbeliever for millennia. That’s HOW they became so widespread and numerous in the first place.
And the person living in a fantasy is you.
Damn, I didn’t know I grew up in a hate movement. I guess all that talk about loving your neighbor and helping your fellow man was just a front for the subliminal tales of loving your neighbor and helping your fellow man. Those sneaky bastards!
Face it Der Trihs, you’re a crackpot loon when it comes to religion and until you stop seeing religious people as individuals instead of as the hive mind product of a hateful brainwashing cult you’re always going to be a crackpot loon.
You’re really no better than the fundy bastards that you think we all are.
Maybe not “HATEFUL” in most cases…
but you might want to try removing the blind fold. All religions brainwash. Usually at a young age or at a time of struggle. Sure some people make up their own mind but you can’t sit here and tell me people aren’t being brainwashed by others’ beliefs.
It was a lie. Christianity is not at all benevolent.
Gotcha. You’ve been brainwashed. I see that now.
I guess it will take my Christian charity (except, I’m no longer Christian, so this could be tough) to feel pity for you.
When she said I was reaching, she implied that I seemingly “wanted” to be part of an oppressed group. Which I think from the tone of my OP and subsequent replies, you can see is clearly not the case - quite the opposite in fact. And I think her initial claim that there’s no social stigma attached to atheism (specifically, that to claim a social stigma is “reaching”) is wrong - she even admitted as much.
I’ll admit that my indignation at [BSleeps**’ suggeston that I was reaching might have been fueled by 2am-righteous anger - thus the diatribe about the Pledge. And yes, there are a lot worse words than “under god” to force my children to say - “USA uber alles” for instance, or “down with the infidels”. 
But do I feel very deeply that the Pledge of Allegiance infringes on my rights as a parent - I won’t retract anything I’ve said here.
However, in and of itself, it’s a poor example of any kind of social stigma per se, and perhaps I could have used a better more immediate example. But I think the remarks seen here show that as far as the Pledge goes, many people think athiests should just deal with it. And I’m not one to take the message “sit down and shut up” lightly.
My views on the Pledge notwithstanding, I think other examples presented here, both anecdotal and in cites, prove that there is indeed a very real stigma.
I’m not unhappy that there was such a lively debate - I guess I should have expected one. But my whole intention wasn’t to fire off a debate on whether or not atheists are stigmatized (I try to stay out of GD), or even to flame about the Pledge of Allegiance (I try to stay out of the pit, too). I simply wanted to share a somewhat unsettling revelation, and see if anyone had any other experiences to share. But if Sleeps wants to come in and say “no, you’re wrong”, and turn this into an altogether different discussion, well, like I said, I don’t take the message “sit down and shut up” lightly.
I disagree. Your posts read to me like you definitely get a charge out of being part of an oppressed minority. Of course, no one knows you’re part of an oppressed minority, so you have no idea if they’d actually oppress you.
Der Trihs, with all due respect, I think it’s pretty obvious that this was one of the reasons I didn’t post this in GD. I and most of the other folks in this thread have made clear that we respect others’ religions, and I’d appreciate it if we could keep your kind of talk to GD. If not, frankly I’d rather the Mods just close this thread altogether.
Well, I don’t get a “charge” out of it - I’m certainly not dwelling on it. While certain aspects of my non-belief have warranted some deliberation (primarily my views around the Pledge of Allegiance), I’d not really given a lot of thought to any kind of broad stigma until my friend pointed out that he’s afraid to out me. As I’ve said repeatedly, the central issue is that after living 36 years under relative privilege, it’s unsettling to realize that there’s something about me that isn’t accepted by many. And I’ve also repeatedly said that I’m not looking for a crusade or anything - just sharing some personal thoughts and experiences, which I thought would be appropriate for MPSIMS. The way this thread has gone, I guess I should have gone straight to GD.
Oh no, the whole religion thing is alive and all too well in PDX! I don’t have too much trouble with it any more–when asked about “the holidays” and suchlike I’ve taken to just saying flatly “I’m not a Christian.” This usually leads to religious types assuming I’m Jewish, and sometimes they’ll push it with a “Happy Hanukkah” or something like. If I feel it necessary I’ll either answer with “I’m an atheist” or “blessed be,” either one of which is essentially correct for my mostly nonexistent belief system and will usually get the subject changed. Then again, I’m a 50 year old woman who doesn’t get messed with much anymore, but even so some people can be really sniffy about the whole issue.
My grandson, on the other hand, has a much harder time. He’s identified as either agnostic or atheist for years now and we’ve had some problems with school regarding it. In fourth grade he got tired of a classmate endlessly witnessing to him, told her he knows there is no god and asked her to knock it off and she went ballistic. She shouted that he was a satanist, that he was going to hell, and she did NOT let up until we finally had to call a conference with her parents, the principal and my daughter and grandson. Even so, the principal tried to suggest that my grandson should be the one to shut up with his unpopular opinion, not that Jeebus-girl ought to leave her religion at home. My daughter threw a fit–it never did get truly resolved and that little girl was pretty hateful to my grandson for the rest of their time together at that school, repeating her “he’s going to hell” opinion to all and sundry and rallying her coreligionist friends to join in the bullying. It eventually got to the point where the administration deliberately put them in separate classes the next year.
Now he’s in middle school, kids wear cross necklaces and religously oriented t-shirts, but he’s been castigated by teachers because he will openly disagree with religious views and chooses not to participate in religiously based activities. He was punished by a playground monitor for drawing a pentacle with chalk (the chalk is okay, the pentacle is what she objected to–said it’s a “satanist” symbol) on the play yard. Again with the conference, wherein we advised the school that the pentacle is a legitimate religious symbol and that even if the kid DID belong to the Church of Satan, it’s STILL a legitimate, recognized church and she has no business trying to regulate his expression, unless she’s also ready to bar ALL religious symbols from school. She then tried to make it out to be some form of “hate speech” and we had to set her straight again. It finally took the threat of a lawsuit to get her to back the fuck off the kid. Lucky for us, the school district fired her happy ass and the current principal is much more sensible.
Even here in Portland there are a LOT of religious nutbars who simply cannot wrap their tiny brains around the fact that not everybody shares their belief system. They just assume as much and anything that derails their “bless you’s” and “thank Jesuses” and “I’ll pray for you’s” and all the rest of it at best causes a fish eyed double take but more exaggerated responses are by no means unusual. The stigma is real, even in this uber blue city.
Sleeps with Butterflies, as someone mentioned upthread, has her head in the sand. Resolutely, it would seem. Her stance seems to be that since she hasn’t personally seen much discrimination against atheists, then said discrimination doesn’t exist, which is patently absurd.
I could make the same general statement about homosexuals (I’ve never seen one discriminated against firsthand), but if I posited that they weren’t disenfranchised in this country, I’d get flamed off this board-for good reason.
And her first post was disingenuous as hell, considering that the OP went out of his way to present his situation as a minor dismaying epiphany and explicitly disclaim that he wasn’t trying to equate his plight with the more widely known civil rights movements. Perhaps he did overreact, but people tend to do that when others blithely misconstrue their words and then address them with condescension and scorn.
Your guarantee is ludicrous. Numerous cites have been presented in this thread showing polls where atheists are consistently among the least trusted demographics in this nation. And while you have a point about it being human nature to discriminate, you’ve overlooked the fact most discrimination occurs against minorities, and that this country is approximately 75% Christian, 8-12% atheist.
Taken with the previous quote, this reads You aren’t being discriminated against, but I’d recommend the ‘Don’t ask, Don’t Tell’ approach if you’d like people to stop discriminating against you. I guess some animals really are more equal than others.
Why do people care? Perhaps because forcing someone to modify an innocuous behavior in order to assuage the angst dissension creates in the delicate Christian majority sort of flies in the face of that whole ‘pursuit of happiness’ ideal, as well as the idea of separation of church and state when said behavior modification is tacitly endorsed by a government body. And yes, in the grand scheme, it is a very minor complaint. But it is a legitimate complaint. And one defending Christianity (or religion in general) really shouldn’t ever use the word sanctimonious. Ever.
Crown Prince of Irony, you did an excellent of job presenting an eye opening story.
I think this thread, and all the views contained, is a great example of how the USA has no real freedom of religion. Like I said, emigrate to Europe, we moved past this crap about 100 years ago.
Well, since my daughter went through it, perhaps my slights are not merely perceived…
Who said anything about sit down and shut up? It’s more like choosing your battles. Work is not a place for anyone to share information about politics or religion, why would you want to take the bait and continue a unprofessional and possibly controversial conversation? No one is making you do that but you. What if they asked you about your sex life? Would you describe your practices? You’re choosing to share this information for whatever reason. If you know it could cause a problem with you then don’t. There’s a time and place for discussion & debate and work isn’t it.
I mentioned that when I identified as something other than Christian, I have had a few difficult issues. I also mentioned that being an atheist, to a Christian, is usually not really different than being of another religion. If you’re not worshiping Christ, then you are worshiping a false idol in Bible-land. Do you honestly believe as an atheist one would get more grief than a Muslim in this day and age?
I don’t care what way you want to phrase it or twist it, when you are working it is best to keep certain things private. If the OP wants to argue with people instead of deflecting the question, he can have at it. If he wants to stop the conversation with any number of courteous responses, he can do that too. He makes the choice.
The OP believes he’s being told to “sit down and shut up” when no such thing is being said. He has choices:
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Continue to counter rude questions with personal information about his religious beliefs that could cause him difficulty with his boss who may or may not be reasonable about the topic of religion.
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Find a way to present his dissatisfaction to his employer and ask they improve the situation.
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Find a way to live in this unfair world (for everyone!) by deflecting intrusive questions in a professional and adult manner which allows him to worship or not worship in whatever way he sees fit, and allows him to maintain a reasonable working relationship with his co-workers.
That’s about it on choices as far as I can see. If you want to be someone who rails against any injustice that comes your way, that is your right. You’re going to win some and lose some. As I have mentioned previously (and it seems some people have chosen to ignore) I am a big believer in the separation of church and state, but I’m afraid things are probably going to remain the way they are for quite some time. Like most any kind of positive change, it comes slowly.
There are many things that aren’t “fair” if you look around. The OP children and I do not. He gets more money in tax credits than I do simply because he has chosen to bring children into the world. In a perfect world, he would get the same tax deduction that I do as a taxpayer and absorb the extra cost of having children because they are his. That’s not going to happen because most adults have children and they want their tax breaks. Fair? Not really. I accept this because I have no choice.
In a perfect world we wouldn’t need to even think about affirmative action. We’d have people treated the same in jobs regardless of their race, sex, etc etc. Unfortunately, left to their own devices there are people who would exclude people based on these protected characteristics. Many people believe it is unfair to have affirmative action.
No, it isn’t fair that as an atheist you would be treated differently by anyone, let alone in a work environment. So that brings us back to the three choices. Pick one and go with it.