My best friend/coworker is afraid to out me. . .

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

And here you keep hammering on this perception that I am on some kind of freaking crusade to stamp out intolerance in the workplace, or forcefully disclose my non-belief to my coworkers - have you not read any of my posts? Or are you just skimming them for the tidbits that you take umbrage with?

I’ve already repeated my central assertion ad nauseum - that it is somewhat sadly ironic that my gay friend and coworker is afraid to out me to my coworkers, and that this exchange brought home some unsettling realizations regarding my position in society. The fact that my workplace is at all involved in the discussion is peripheral to the central conflict here. And I stated explicitly that I’m fine keeping my non-belief a secret for the sake of maintaining a good relationship, but that this in and of itself is proof of the stigma - religious folks feel less ( or no) compulsion to do so.

Before you claim I “want to argue with people instead of deflecting the question” or “rail against any injustice that comes (my) way” please read my posts in full, especially the OP, and tell me where you got that impression. Notwithstanding my remarks about the Pledge of Allegiance - which were only presented (somewhat heatedly, I’ll give you that) to counter your flippant response that I was “reaching” - you won’t find evidence to support your impression of me. Only me, commenting on the sudden realization that my worldview puts me at odds with the status quo - that I have something to hide that others don’t feel as compelled to hide. Nothing more.

I don’t know if I tapped a nerve with you or what, but we seem to be having two completely different discussions here. And as for my part - well, I feel I’ve gotten all from this exchange that I need to or care to. I’m happy to have a dialog with anyone who wants to comment on the central theme of the OP. But if you want to continue imagining me as some crusading martyr, it’ll be a one-sided discussion.

62

Thank you. :slight_smile:

63

Your office has prayers? Different workers are required to lead them?

Please tell me you work for a church, because that’s the only place where this kind of thing would make any sense at all.

64

This cite shows atheists trailing Muslims in approval ratings, one rung above Scientologists-followers of a [del]cult[/del] religion founded by a sci-fi author in the 1960’s.

Hm, what else? Oh, how aboutthis summation of a University of Minnesota poll-

And just for icing, there’s this (somewhat dated)poll showing that in 1999 people were about as likely to vote for an atheist for president as they were to vote for a black man in 1959, and we all know that anti-black sentiment was a thing of the past well before 1960. You could argue the numbers have changed in 9 years, but given the groundswell of (faux?) religiosity created by 9-11, I doubt they’ve changed much.

Ah, so he can-

  1. Answer innocuous questions honestly and probably be ostracized.

  2. Seek recourse in good faith and probably face further exclusion (cause we all know how much social groups love a squeaky wheel), and possibly termination.

  3. Lie creatively, which is so much different than shutting up, because when you lie, you see, you simple deceive, whereas when you shut up, you conceal. Aside from misrepresenting the truth in order to avoid unfavorable (and wholly unreasonable) consequences, lying and shutting up are complete antipodes. :rolleyes:

Much more slowly the longer alleged supporters such as yourself continue to marginalize legitimate issues, tell people who are stigmatized that they are ‘reaching.’

I get the feeling that you (Sleeps With Butterflies) weren’t aware of the numbers given above; now you are, and I think you owe Crown Prince of Irony an apology for being so quick to dismiss his (very mild) complaint, as well imputing him with much more contempt and outrage than he’s shown.

65

Thanks for providing the added clarity, Incensed.

I didn’t reply to SWB’s Official List of Atheist Coping Mechanisms ™ at first, because it seems pretty obvious from the entirety of my posts, that I’m already leveraging option 3, a couple isolated (and aforementioned) incidents notwithstanding.

But Incensed nailed the central dilemma on the head - the recent minor epiphany (courtesy of The Gay Friend - that’s his new nickname :)) brought home the fact that every time I choose this option, I am essentially lying by either omission or misdirection.

Atheism isn’t some sexual proclivity (SWB had earlier likened my dilemma to one disclosing BDSM tendencies) or some asocial aspect of my character, and it damned sure isn’t something I’m ashamed of. Atheism (or more specifically metaphysical naturalism) is a central pillar of my worldview, just as religion is for the believers. Yet I feel compelled to lie (or deflect if you will) in order to maintain my social/professional standing, while (all together now!) most religious folks do not feel the same compulsion (I feel like I’m beating my head against a wall here).

And this central epiphany is that suddenly I feel like I’ve been selling myself short - whether it’s at work, with extended family, or at my children’s school, I cannot fully represent myself and my core values while my more religious counterparts can, and sometimes do with impunity. And knowing I’ve been taking the workaround all these years is unsettling.

Is this one of the major injustices in the world, that I need to be careful how and to whom I talk about my worldview? Of course not, and anyone trying to imply that I’m claiming more than a personal greivance must not be reading what I’ve posted here. I am expressing a valid frustration in response to a realization - again, I would just like to put forth my opinions and offer whatever small wisdom my life experience has provided, with the same latitude as believers can and all too often do. My life won’t fall apart if I can’t, but the point is, I can’t.

66

Do not mistake your compulsion to keep silent rather than to enter into a potentially harmful debate over religion or politics for systemic prosecution.

67

With all due respect, how the hell did we get from “social stigma” to “systemic prosecution”? Where have I given the impression that anyone is actively out to discriminate against me? Is there some Bizarro-Crown-Prince typing manifestos in between the lines here that I’m not seeing?

Hell, if anything, I am struck by the absurdity of discovering that a gay man - who is subject to systemic prosecution - feels duty-bound as a friend to keep my non-belief a secret, while he openly faces said prosecution every day. Epiphanies aside, my first reaction when he said that was to get a little verklempt - I honestly was close to getting choked up at the thought of having such a good friend.

And since I’m getting personal - all talk of tact, and deflecting conversations, and appropriate work discussions notwithstanding, his comment makes me feel like a chickenshit for concealing my non-belief for fear of some small loss of status. I certainly don’t feel like some martyr facing stones and arrows - even if I were to go crazy and put a sticker on my car that says “god sucks”, at worst, a neighborhood kid keys my car, or the boss decides to axe me if another round of layoffs hits. My friend daily faces much worse than that. If he says there’s a stigma attached to atheism, well, as a gay ex-Mormon, he knows from stigmas, so you can be damned sure there’s a stigma. But nothing more.

68

I’m trying to remember the context in which I’ve volunteered that I’m an atheist, and the only examples I can recall are as part of accepting an invitation to someone’s church. If I decline I’ll give them the reason… I don’t want to go to church because it’s usually boring. I don’t want to go to church because I’d rather sleep in. I don’t want to go to church because I’m an atheist? That doesn’t make any more sense to me than “I don’t want to go to the mall/beach/bar/movies/party with you because I don’t believe in your god.” It’s rude.

I don’t want to play blame-the-victim because there are some people out there with an evil Us/Them complex about religion and sometimes people are discriminated against unfairly, but sometimes it’s not that other people are making an issue out of atheism, it’s that the atheist is making an issue out of everyone else’s religion.

69

I’m sorry, but I am cracking up! It may be because it is way too late for me to be up, or it may be because I am just goofy, but I am laughing to tears.

The more you point out the original mild stand on this issue, the bigger and wilder the accusations become that you think you have endured your own atheist holocaust.

On the topic of the OP, I had an interesting thing happen to me yesterday.

My daughter and I were waiting for our ride back from music class, in the front lobby where a lot of the students and teachers mingle.

I said to my daughter, “I think the proper label for what we are, if we must have a label, is pantheist. This book has finally convinced me” (reading The God Delusion right now).

My daughter said to me, “Okay mom. Can we talk about this at home?”

“Why can’t we discuss it now?”

“Because I don’t want to offend anyone here. And everyone is all hyped up on Christmas”

“Ok. Understood” Although I didn’t really understand. We didn’t bring up the topic again, but thinking about it, that is not the first time that she expressed some sort of…shame that we aren’t Christians or whatever.

She told me that on the bus, once, the kids pressed her about Christmas and when she told them we don’t ‘believe in god that way’, one of the kids did indeed call her a ‘devil worshipper’. That didn’t seem to really bother her though. She seemed unphased as she related the story.

I only give these ancedotes to agree with you that maybe atheism has a bit of a stigma.

70

I’m not sure I follow you here - if I am invited to someone’s church, and in declining give them the reason that I do not believe in god, that’s rude? And equivalent to saying “I won’t go to the mall with you because I don’t believe in your god?” Maybe the churches you went too were a little too boring, and you slept through the worship a supernatural deity part? I’m not out to offend anyone, but one of my points is that I’ve essentially been lying either through omission or deceit. And to tell someone inviting me to a church any other reason than “I’m atheist” is a flat-out lie - in fact, this is the one circumstance where I think I wouldn’t hesitate to tell the truth. Luckily I don’t get invited to church that often - come to think of it, not since that incident at work many years ago, as a matter of fact. Maybe the believers have a bat phone or something, and they all know not to invite me to church. :slight_smile:

Well, glad that’s settled. Seriously, you seem to be saying that as an atheist, if I insist on presenting a naturalistic viewpoint when given the opportunity (which of course I’ve already said I’m not doing) that I am the one with the problem? Because that’s all I’m saying - I feel some small stigma due to not feeling free to present my view. I don’t feel slighted by “religion” per se, because as I’ve said in an earlier post, I’ve discussed my beliefs civilly with religious folks, and thus know that some believers at least have the capacity to accept atheism. And I’m not here to debate the validity of religion - I’m sure there’s one or three such GD threads going on right now that are just fine without me.

It’s a social issue, not a secular issue, and I think if one ** were** to take this particular conversation into GD territory, one might postulate that the stigma has something to do specifically with the anti-intellectual movement in American society. But that’s pure WAG on my part - I’m not trying to uncover the cause of the stigma. I’m just commenting on the sudden realization that there is a stigma attached to my non-belief.

71

Oh, please. Christianty got to where it is by war, genocide, and ruthless, systematic brutality and oppression. Not by benevolence. And it’s still as destructive and oppressive as it can get away with, even today. Pointing that out is politically incorrect , not “brainwashing”.

Yes. In the eyes of many, it’s better to kill for some “false god” than to be a nice atheist, because at least a murderous cultist/heretic/pagan is upholding faith.

72

Thank you!!! At least someone else sees the absurd turns this discussion has taken. But to be honest, there’s been no small measure of entertainment value in this for me as well, or I would have dropped it yesterday. Hell, I’ve increased my post-count by 2 whole percent on this one thread. :slight_smile:

73

Okay, I asked you politely. But since the discussion is still continuing rather civilly (present company excepted), I would rather not ask the Mods to close this thread, so I’ll ask you once more - please keep your comments on the validity of religion to yourself, or take it to GD. This is neither the forum, nor the thread, pal.

74

You aren’t a mod; and I’ve been responding to other people’s claims. And I’ve been commenting on Christianity’s/Christian’s behavior and attitudes, not validity.

And all your ‘nice guy’ approach has gotten you are escalating accusations of a persecution complex.

75

Being the OP, I believe I have some right to control the tone of the discussion - at the very least, I can have the thread closed. And I firmly believe that you are trying to drag this discussion into a debate on Christianity itself. As I’ve made very clear, my central topic has nothing to do with the validity of any particular religion, but rather with the stigma attached to atheism, and more specifically, my experience and perceptions of said stigma - which, despite what I’d like to think of myself, do not belong in Great Debates.

While this has been a wide-ranging discussion, everyone else’s comments have at least been somewhat rooted in some way to the OP. No one has come in here witnessing for Christianity and condemning atheism, and I already said I’d appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy.

But you come in here threadsh*tting with comments that do indeed belong in a GD, or more appropriately, a Pit thread, and you expect. . . what? Solidarity from the fellow heathens? Either keep your remarks in line with the general tone of the discussion, or go, and take your ‘nice guy’ (WTF?) comments with you.

Or, if you want to be a complete douchebag, keep it up and force me to ask a mod to close what has been a fairly entertaining and lively thread, if I do say so myself. Your call.

76

I’m with the OP on this one: yes, there is discrimination against atheists, and no, it doesn’t mean we need to go off and feel sorry for ourselves.

Sleeps With Butterflies keeps coming back to the point that you can just keep your mouth shut at the office about your beliefs, whatever they are, so it is no big deal. I’ll grant that this is largely the case. But there are definitely plenty of real-world situations where people who follow a mainstream religious practice can say so, but atheists have to keep mum.

An example: I married into a strongly religious family, with several mainstream-to-progressive ministers from a large Protestant denomination among them. If I were Jewish or Moslem or Buddhist, my in-laws would have gone out of their way to accommodate my beliefs, I’m sure. I would NOT have had to keep my mouth shut about my beliefs.

As it is, I have to make all of the accommodations, because it would hurt them terribly otherwise. For example: we had to baptize our son and as part of that I had to stand up in church and promise out loud to the congregation to raise my son to believe that Christ died for his sins.

Well, I do not believe that, and it was painful for me to have to lie in front of an audience. However, if I had taken a stand and refused to do it, I would have been branded an insensitive troublemaker (the sort of person that S**leeps with Butterflies **seems to think that the OP is, although I am not getting that sense from his posts at all).

I would not have been asked to participate in that ritual had I been, say, Jewish, and no one would have thought less of me.

For sure I don’t go around brooding about this. I get along with my in-laws just fine, and I am perfectly happy to participate in a little give and take for the sake of happy family relations. However, all the “give” has to come from the tolerant atheist, and none from the Christians. That’s just the way it is.

77

Wow. You showed a lot more flexibility than I would have. I can barely tolerate the new-agey prattling from my hippie in-laws without throwing in some kind of naturalist interjection (“Mars does not have crystal spirits floating around on it! It has rock, ice, and more rock, and maybe microbes - that’s it!!!”), but you really took a bullet to keep the peace on that one.

78

What do you think happens during a baptism? The sponsors of the baptized person are supposed to confirm that they will see to it that this person is raised within the proper teachings of the church.

79

Ditto. I don’t participate in any such discussions, but if approached directly, I don’t plan to lie, either.

80

Did you even read her next statement?

No offense intended, but in the proper context, your comment seems careless at best, bordering on insensitive.