That is just the way it is, and so what, right? I mean, when I first decided I was vehemently anti Christian (a very militant time for me), I used to make a point to skip the Christmas celebrations. Then it occured to me that I was letting Christmas dictate my life in a way that was unnecessary. All my family is getting together and eating and laughing and drinking, and I’m going to skip it because it is Christmas? That didn’t make sense to me. Now, usually, I just go. No big deal.
Of course I read her next statement. But it doesn’t matter how uncomfortable it makes her feel, she agreed to let her son be baptized. You can’t then turn around and say, “The baptism is fine, but what’s with all this God and Jesus talk?”
That’s how I feel about Christmas and Easter. Many of the trappings of both (e.g. the Christmas tree, the Easter egg, etc.) are rooted in old bygone pagan ritual anyway, and have become so ingrained in society that the religious connotations are so far removed from contemporary society that it seems useless to bother worrying about it as an atheist. And hey, who wants to turn down free booze and turkey (in that order)?
However, it’s the day to day stuff that I’m alluding to - feeling I have to keep my mouth shut about my atheism when someone asks me my opinion on a political issue that might warrant a naturalistic take. Or the aforementioned invitation to church - a Catholic extending an invitation would think nothing of accepting “No thanks, I’m Jewish” as an answer. But tell them “No thanks, I’m atheist” and they’d likely be put off, at best, and hit the roof, at worst.
But what’s the difference? Saying “I’m Jewish” implies, " I don’t believe Jesus Christ died for your sins, and thus disagree with a central tenet of your religion", while saying “I’m atheist” implies “I don’t believe in supernatural deities, and thus disagree with a central tenet of your religion”. I’m not pushing my belief on anyone by declaring it, just as the Jewish person does not. But I’d venture that the atheist who declares his or her non-belief even casually will catch much more shit than the Jew that declares his or her affiliation.
And she’s not saying “what’s with all the God and Jesus talk” - she knew exactly what was being asked of her (to lie to appease family), and did so willingly, but simply postulated that a person of a different faith would not have been asked to do the same.
And while she didn’t explicitly say so, she implies that her in-laws know of her non-belief, and yet still asked her to perform the ceremony. And, she said she has no problem with it.
I’m sorry, but as far as I know, this is untrue. The baptism ritual is (almost literally) set in stone. And one of the things you have to do is get in front of those present and say “Yes, I will [raise this child/help this adult live their life] according to the teachings of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” or something to that effect.
I’m not sure I see where the disconnect is - what exactly is untrue? I don’t want to be defending anyone who can defend themselves, or putting words in anyone’s mouth, but I’d imagine if she were of another religious persuasion rather than atheist, the father’s testimony would have sufficed - I personally know a Jewish woman who didn’t speak at her son’s (Episcopalian) baptism, and her husband didn’t mind. Not sure about how his family took it, but I didn’t gather it was a huge problem. If CairoCarol feels that she would have had the same kind of “pass” were she differently religious rather than atheist, can’t you just take her at her word?
I guess the degree of flexibility depends on the flavor of baptism - but you can’t tell me all Protestant baptism rituals are created alike.
Exactly. It’s very possible that is how all baptisms work at CairoCarol’s church. If that’s how they say it’s done, I would have little reason to believe that’s atheist rule, because that’s how I’ve known all baptisms to be done.
Well, we’re not talking about specific rules*, or else this would be a GD thread about something completely different. We’re talking about a social stigma, which prevents atheists from asserting their worldview when compared to believers. And CairoCarol seemed to think that her atheism specifically was precluding any kind of “pass” that would likely be proffered to a believer of another faith.
And let’s face it, she is much more familiar with the circumstances of her example than you are, so maybe you should consider carefully before accusing someone of spreading untruths.
*Although I somehow doubt that most denomations that demonstrate any kind of flexibility in the matter would codify any special dispensation for non-believing parents in the same spirit as they would for parents holding other beliefs.
Where did I do that? I was merely pointing out that the part of the baptism that offended her atheist sensibilities so much is a pretty standard part of the baptism process.
Complaining about it, after agreeing to the baptism in the first place, seems strange to me.
I should refine this statement - we are talking specifically about my sudden realization of a social stigma against atheists, and my call to action for other non-believers to share their experiences.
This isn’t a debate about whether there is a stigma or not - you can start your own GD thread if you wish to disagree (if so, I won’t be joining you - it gets a little stuffy in GD). So let’s bring this back around to me.
Well, she wasn’t complaining per se, since she’s already said she’s fine making the capitulation (as have I, and several others). She’s simply sharing her experience (see my above post) and affirming that the assumed social stigma has affected her in some way. That’s all we’re doing here, man, is sharing. Can you feel the love?
Now, when you said “as far as I know, this is untrue”, were you saying she was lying about the whole thing? That she was lying, or misled when she said other religious faiths would preclude her from participating, but that her atheism did not? How can you know that if you a) don’t know the specific denomination, and b) don’t personally know the people involved?
I don’t care how you slice it, you implied she was spreading untruths, and I’d really like to know what you specifically saw as untrue about her statement. If you believe she’s needlessly complaining, well that’s one thing - you might as well call everyone who’s shared their experiences (per the OP) a bunch of ninny, whining little crybabies, neener-neener-neener.
But it’s possible to just come out and say it without casting vague aspersions of untruth.
I could not have done what CairoCarol did. I don’t go around loudly proclaiming my atheism, or trying to convert people to a more rational/naturalistic worldview, but I don’t lie about it when asked either. Her first mistake was marrying a person from an ultrareligous family; the second, and more important one, was not coming clean about her beliefs straight away. She will now have to live a life of lies around her in-laws.
I will not be cowed to shut up about my beliefs. More atheists need to stand up and be counted. I said in my earlier post that we need an atheist awareness campaign. Many religious folks are not aware that they even know any non-believers in the same way that many straight folks are under the mistaken assumption that they don’t know any gay folks. Since they don’t think they know any atheists, they think they are all like Richard Dawkins or Der Trihs. We cannot get rid of this social stigma regarding atheism if we stay silent. Just like gay rights couldn’t progress without gays coming out. I’m NOT saying this is equivalent to the gay rights movement, however.
I think Crown Prince of Irony should come out at work. CPoI, you live in Communist Portland! Ok, you live in a conservative suburb of Communist Portland, but close enough.
The “untruth” I was replying to was something you said about how she was likely asked to say what she had to say because she was an atheist:
You further say that her in-laws asked her to perform in the ceremony even though they knew she was an atheist:
I’m saying, neither of those things matter. Most baptisms require the sponsors/parents/godparents to affirm that they will help the person being baptised to live a Christian life.
It’s sad that she had to feel uncomfortable during the baptism, but by agreeing to have her son baptised takes away any right she might have to complain about the way the ceremony happens, because the way she describes it is pretty standard.
Okay, explain to me how my general (IMO accurate) synopsis of CairoCarol’s situation, with no mention of baptism whatsoever, warranted your accusation of untruth, which was all about baptism? It seems to me you are replying to Carol’s post, by proxy. Or do you disagree with my summary? If so, what specifically is untrue about my summary? I’m happy to offer a correction.
(bolding mine)
And here you go again, justifying your remarks by refuting her “complaints”. Just to kick the dead horse a few more times:
and
Complaints? Really??? It doesn’t seem to me we’re having a big 'ol atheist pity-party here - like-minded people are sharing their experiences as per my original call to action. If you don’t want people to freely share their experiences, come out and say we shouldn’t, and then go away.
But it seems you are projecting some personal greivance onto the posters here, and you are only serving to drag the discussion away from the topic posited in the OP. To wit: what have your experiences been coming out as a non-believer?
So - what has your experience been coming out as a non-believer, Justin? I’d be happy to read about it. Otherwise, go find another sandbox to crap in.
In the interest of fairness, there may be a misunderstanding here, upon review. In my remark that elicited your “that is untrue” comment -
I meant that she was saying a person of a different faith would not have been asked to lie to appease family, i.e. woudn’t have been asked to provide testimony, period. I think Justin_Bailey may have felt that the central claim was that Carol was being asked to say something different than would be asked of her if she were faithful, specifically due to her atheism.
Although (and like I said, I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth) I felt it was pretty clear CairoCarol was claiming the former, not the latter, and thus I didn’t dwell on it in my summary statement. But I’ll give Justin the benefit of the doubt on this one, if that misunderstanding was indeed the source of the “that is untrue” comment.
I retract my criticism of Justin’s claim of untruth, and apologize for any mislaid words in that regard.
Wow, a lot happened while I was asleep in Indonesia…
I admit I’m a little bit puzzled about the “untruth” I supposedly said? If that is what Justin Bailey is accusing me of, anyway; I’m not entirely clear.
I’m also not sure why the fact that I agreed to go through with my son’s baptism means I’m not allowed to use the story to express a point.
I just plain don’t get why this is the case. First, as Crown Prince has pointed out, I wasn’t complaining - simply sharing a story from my own life that supports the point he made in his OP. But hey, let’s say that I am “complaining.” Justin, what if you had a slightly dotty granddmother who made the world’s worst apple pie, but because you knew it would hurt her feelings if you didn’t partake, you tried to eat at least a small slice on every visit? Does the fact that you agree to eat the slice mean you are not allowed to commiserate with cousins who do the same thing when you are out of hearing range about how it is hard to choke the pie down? Because agreeing to eat the pie takes away any right you might have to complain about the way the pie tastes?
This brings up a great point - sometimes, there isn’t an “option 3”, as per SWB’s list upthread - there really isn’t always a way to graciously deflect the central issue of faith.
CairoCarol, I really admire you for your choice. The few times I’ve ever been faced with such a lack of options, they’ve all been fairly insignificant incidents.
Sorry - your post got kind of lost there for a while.
Thanks for the sentiment (although IMO, I personally don’t think Carol made a mistake - we can’t ever control who we fall in love with).
As I said upthread, I do feel kind of like a chickenshit for not being more open about my religion. Maybe one of these days I really will get up the gumption to put a Darwin fish on my car. But I just got a new car, and I just know it would get keyed by the neighborhood teenage troglodytes (they’re not troglodytes 'cause they’re religious - they’re just a couple of little punks). So maybe when it’s gotten a few dings and some more miles under the hood.
No, the best thing I ever did was to marry my husband - we knew and respected each other’s views on religion when we married (and although he was a Christian then, over the years my husband has come to share my world view). As to not “coming clean” about my beliefs, I did come clean with my husband, and I saw no reason to insist that his parents be told “by the way, your son is marrying an atheist!”
I’ve been married for 26 years now and feel very comfortable with the choices I’ve made about religion and family. That having been said, if Ataraxy would chose to behave differently in a similar situation, I probably wouldn’t question his/her choice as long as it was carried out with respect and concern for the feelings of others.
