My best friend/coworker is afraid to out me. . .

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
101

I would still think the idea that the omnipresent polyfather only listens if you pray in a particular building was silly even if I did believe in gods.

If someone invites you to the mall and you don’t like consumerism you probably don’t decline the invitation in a way that makes it seem like you think the other person is irreconcilably wrong with the world for going shopping. That’s the message “No. I’m an atheist.” sends when someone invites you to their church socially.

“I’m an atheist.” is not a naturalistic viewpoint. It is not a statement of belief… except for perhaps the rather rude “I believe you are wrong.”

“What do you believe?”
“I don’t believe in your god.”
“I didn’t ask what you don’t believe.”

My beliefs aren’t dependent on gods not existing, so there’s no reason to mention them if I’m in a discussion about my beliefs. Even if someone else is making an argument based on their religion I can assert my (disagreeing) worldview without needing to attack their belief in gods.

Doing so, especially in response to a polite social invitation, is rude.

Probably has something to do with the inherent offensive negativity of asserting “non-belief” as equivalent to belief. You do have beliefs, right? But rather than sharing those on equal footing with the beliefs of others, you choose to make an issue of non-belief.

If a christian chimed in a discussion of beliefs with “I believe you’re all going to hell.”, you’d think that was rude and feel justified in giving them the cold shoulder, right? That’s basically what “I’m an atheist” is. “I won’t tell you what I do believe beyond that I believe you’re all wrong.”

102

Now I’m confused. What do you think is a socially acceptable response in this situation:

Acquaintance: 1010011010, would you like to come to church with me next Sunday?
1010011010: No, thanks.
Acquaintance: Why not? If you’re busy in the morning, we have evening services as well!

1010011010: ???

Seriously, what can an atheist say at this point that is not either a lie (“I’m busy all day, every Sunday”) or, according to you, offensive? Also, I don’t understand why, if I read you correctly, it would be fine to say “no thanks, I’m Jewish” but not “no thanks, I’m an atheist.” One answer insults the Christian’s beliefs, and the other one does not?

What about “no thank you, I don’t share your belief system”? Is THAT okay? Whoops, on rereading your post, I guess it cannot be. Because as superficially polite as it sounds, that’s just another way of saying “I won’t tell you what I believe except I think what you believe is wrong.”

103

Again with the “you have to make concessions so as not to offend the majority” line of victim blaming?

I agree that atheism isn’t a religion; it’s a lack thereof, but it is widely regarded as a sort of religiosity and is the closest non-believers can come to a one word answer when asked to self-identify.

A statement of dissent from the pervasive majority opinion, as in ‘I don’t believe in god’, is a valid way to establish one’s frame of reference quickly and succinctly. If such is done without disdain, mockery or contempt, and is subsequently construed as an insult by the listener, the fault is theirs.

Responding “I’m an atheist” to a question of faith isn’t in and of itself an insult or a challenge, and the fact that it is apparently perceived as such by some illustrates the stigma atheism carries.

And CairoCarol, congrats on the successful inter-faith (as it were) marriage. I couldn’t do it, not because I couldn’t tolerate a differing stance in a spouse, but because there is absolutely no way I would want to debate how to raise our theoretical children.

104

I think if you find someone that you love and respect, finding the compromises on religion is pretty easy - at least its been so for us. But you have to respect them enough to make the compromises - and they have to respect you enough to do so as well. And you both need to respect your children enough to realize that they will find their own path - it my be yours, or hers, or they may choose their own path.

105

What CairoCarol and Incensed said. :slight_smile:

First off, while I make repeated reference to non-belief, frankly, I do believe that atheism connotes a set of specific beliefs and values. If you ask me “What does atheism mean to you?” my answer is “As an atheist, I believe that the world is governed by natural laws, and that it is the imperative of all people to use the unique human traits of reason, compassion, cooperation and communication to improve this world to the fullest extent possible.” And I know several atheists who would put forth some similar (but not identical) kind of answer.

While one might say “well, not everyone sees atheism that way,” let me point out that if you ask 100 Catholics, or 100 Jews, or 100 Muslims that same question “what does (your religion) mean to you?”, I’d be surprised if you wind up with less than 100 different answers.

However, the vibe I’m getting here is that if I disclose that I’m an atheist (pretty much in any way shape or form), I should expect believers to assume the absolute worst about me (that I’m some kind of anti-theist out to destroy Christianity itself), and thus I should either just accept their ire, or conceal my atheism. Which proves my central point - and of course, as I said, this is something I’ve been doing all along and just now realized it, thus the personal dilemma.

As an aside: this thread provides some interesting views on topic of atheism vs. anti-theism, which this whole discussion has kind of danced around, but not really directly addressed.

106

I am an out lesbian, closeted atheist. I, too, feel more secure revealing my gay identity than my atheist identity.

Case in point: A few weeks ago, my father-in-law (well, “outlaw” in this country) was talking about his other daughter’s husband. The husband is a jerk. Probably one of the most self-centered and shallow persons I have ever met. We are all pleasant to him to keep peace in the family, but pretty much everybody thinks he’s an ass. Anyhow… after the latest incident where the husband was being his usual jerky self, my father-in-law happened to mention that he thinks the husband acts that way because he is a “godless person.”

What can I conclude from this? As far as I can tell, my father-in-law believes that a lack of God in one’s life makes a person self-centered, shallow, and an ass. This man is open-minded and accepting of my partner being a lesbian, supportive of our union, of our family, and a doting grandpa to our son. He has never treated me with anything but respect. However, I fear the day he ever finds out I don’t believe in God.

I feel the same about coming out to my Mom – as an atheist – she’s fine with me being a lesbian. But her circle of friends is from church. She’s deeply involved. When I visit, I go to church – especially now that she wants to show off my baby to all her friends. Because that’s where they all get together. I sing the hymns and try not to choke on the hypocrisy of joining in with the responses. I just play the part.

Ironically, the only person I feel like I could come out to is my brother, who is a Lutheran minister. But we haven’t have much of a chance to chat privately in recent years.

107

That’s really interesting, rivulus - off-topic, I am really glad you have a great relationship with your family even after coming out as a lesbian. It’s heartening to see the proof that religion and tolerance are not mutually exclusive in that regard.

As I’ve said, I have so much admiration for folks who can come out publicly about their sexuality, that it makes me feel a bit of a coward - here I am, white, straight and shhh. . . atheist. But like I said, if gays and lesbians see there’s a stigma with atheism, well, hey, there you go.

108

“I’d rather not go. The suggestion just doesn’t appeal to me.” “I’ve never really cared for the whole church thing, thanks though.” “I’m planning on sleeping in and then watching TV instead.” “I’m going to be up late Saturday night drinking the blood of newborns.” “I had a very religious upbringing as a child and it’s turned me off to organized religion.”

There some feature of the Atheist Faith that commands you not to worship a false god? Or participate in your community? Or attend social events with your friends and cow-orkers?

If you don’t want to, fine, say so and say why, but don’t pretend atheism is the reason.QUOTE=CairoCarol;10547207]What about “no thank you, I don’t share your belief system”? Is THAT okay? Whoops, on rereading your post, I guess it cannot be. Because as superficially polite as it sounds, that’s just another way of saying “I won’t tell you what I believe except I think what you believe is wrong.”
[/QUOTE]
For the most part, I believe much the same thing as christians or jews or muslims or buddhists, I just don’t base those beliefs on gods. “I’m an atheist.”, though, doesn’t convey that “We believe a lot of the same things, just for different reasons” that, say, “I’m jewish.” does. You can blame it on the fact that vocal self-identified atheist groups are so often stridently anti-religious (e.g., the recent flap about Freedom From Religion).

109

Again, you suggest I should tell either a bald-faced lie, or dance around the topic? Should I tell them my life story, too?

First off, I don’t have an Atheist Faith (captial A, capital F) - atheism describes one aspect of my worldview, and the word itself explicitly describes me as someone who doesn’t believe in gods. And how does this preclude participating in my community or attending social events??? :confused:

No, the answer “I’m Jewish/Muslim/pick your faith”, given to an invitation to church, conveys the message “I don’t participate in the same religious rituals that you do.”, while “I’m atheist” should convey (to any rational person) “I don’t participate in any religious rituals.” Functionally, they mean the same as regards the question: “I don’t observe the ritual you are asking me to attend”. Obviously, though, many people don’t see it that way, you included.

Should I base all my responses on the worst possible interpretation and reaction that anyone might have? Should I let someone’s potential personal prejudices dictate my behavior and the discourse I participate in - which, as I said, is what I’ve been doing all along?

110

Atheism is the reason I don’t want to go to church. I’m not pretending. Why do you think that atheists who don’t want to go to church are “pretending” that their atheism is the reason? Occam’s Razor would suggest otherwise.

I have no problem with responding “I’d rather not go, the suggestion just doesn’t appeal to me,” as you suggest. (In fact, that is most likely what I would say, since - as the OP stated - many of us feel such a social stigma attached to our views that we avoid bringing them up.) But you certainly have not persuaded me that “No thank you, I’m Jewish” is also acceptable, whereas “No thank you, I’m atheist” is an insult.

One aside: I realized after posting #102 that I committed a rule infraction - that is, changing someone’s username in a quote. It was done because I didn’t trust myself to type “1010011010” correctly (yes, I could have used the quote button, but I didn’t) and I thought “binary user name” was a harmless alternative. It didn’t occur to me that such behavior is against the rules. I apologize - no offense was meant, and I hope none taken.

111

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that marrying your husband was a mistake. I can only hope I meet a woman or man that I could spend 26 years with.

1010011010,If I say I’m an atheist, that is only a statement about MY beliefs and has NOTHING to say about anybody else’s beliefs. If you infer that atheist=antitheist, that is your problem. But there is another thread currently about that. My point is that we have to come out as atheists so that the default assumption is NOT atheist=antitheist, because it is simply not true. Saying “I’m an atheist” is equivalent to saying “I’m Jewish.”

112

I’m suggesting you should do neither.

It doesn’t. That’s why it’s slightly odd to offer it as a reason for declining a social invitation.

Hey, wanna come to a church service with me?
Hey, wanna come to a baseball game with me?

I’m more of a football fan.
I don’t play baseball.

One of those sound odd to you? Like, maybe, the fact that you don’t have to play baseball to attend a game? Why would you bring it up? Kind of shuts down the whole conversation.

Nope. You might consider whether there’s something inappropriate about your responses, though. And you should probably take into account the potential for misunderstanding.

113

So revealing that one is an atheist is “inappropriate.”

I think 1010011010 has just proved the OP was right all along.

Equating an invitation to church with an invitation to a baseball game is flat-out bizarre. It is generally understood that one need not be a baseball player to enjoy watching a baseball game. Going to church, which involves rituals and ceremony that are devoted to sharing the teachings of religious leaders and the giving of praise and thanks to specified deities, and prayer, is hardly the same.

114

My other reasons are ruder.

115

Actually, according to this study at least, atheists are the least trusted group in America. Less so than Muslims even. That counts as social stigma in my book.

116

Atheism is a statement about lack of belief in gods. Nothing else is required. It may also be a belief that gods do not exist. There may be some other common beliefs shared by atheists, but those share beliefs are not atheism.

If the visible/vocal “atheist” groups are any indication, that’s a pretty common inference.

Thanks for the link.

“I’m a theist and I’m Jewish” “I’m a theist and I’m christian.” “I’m theist and I’m muslim.” “I’m atheist.” and?

The “I’m a theist” part is usually unspoken, of course, and it’s a pretty content-free assumption. Doesn’t work the other way. The atheist isn’t saying much of substance, leaving it all to the imagination of the other person… and all they have to go on is that you disagree with them on a fundamental level.

117

You don’t know a lot of sports fans, do you?

118

…Unitiarian (some individuals)
…Humanist (usually)
… Buddhist (some sects)
…Quaker (some individuals in some congregtions)
…Taoist
…Jainist

there are more - not all religions are theistic in nature.
But really, why…you can be a theist but not a member of a religion and merely have your own personal relationship with God.

119

I’d guess the distinction would be between being religious, nonreligious, and antireligious. With “I’m atheist.” tending towards antireligion.

120

I’ll rephrase my question from upthread - what kind of religious services do you go to that don’t focus (in large part) on the whole worship a supernatural deity aspect?

Or are these cocktail minglers where the minister simply hands out Bibles as you leave, like pamphlets at a time-sharing seminar? :dubious:

I’m sorry for the snark (okay, I’m not), but I’ve been to my fair share of services for a few denominations, and I recall them being by and large, um, religious, much more so than social, in nature. Which would completely justify my response of “I’m atheist” to an invitation, as it is the most succinct and honest way to explain my declining the offer.

Now I should say that my atheism doesn’t preclude the possibility of attending a service out of curiosity - for instance, I’ve never been to certain services in a synagogue, or any in a mosque, and if asked to attend, I would be interested in attending to get a fly-on-the-wall perspective of the rituals involved.

However, wouldn’t this also be rude, to show up as an interloper with no intent whatsoever behind my participation in said rituals? What, should I stay silent while the congregation prays, and thus risk offending them? Should I mouth the words, and lie to them (even if they don’t know it)? Should I say the words out loud, and lie to myself?

Scientology and Westboro Baptist Church notwithstanding, I take others’ religion as seriously as I take my own personal views. And I don’t see others’ religious rituals as some trivial thing - there is deep-seated meaning behind these rituals for a lot of people, and I feel that my presence would add no value, and quite possibly be an insult to many.

By way of demonstration - last year I visited the Cathedral de Sevilla in Spain. I describe the experience in this post. While I wasn’t in the cathedral during services, I was there with a Spanish colleague from Madrid who had never been to this cathedral, which is apparently a really big deal for Spanish Catholics. And watching him genuflect and make the sign of the cross, and hearing what I presume was the Lord’s Prayer in Spanish, I did indeed feel like an interloper.

In fact, it made me feel like the worst kind of tourist, watching someone of deep faith express his love for his god, while I sat there trying not to notice. And while (as I describe in the post) the visit had a profound impact on my views on religion, I wouldn’t repeat it again.