What are your main beefs w/ Atheism?

Essentially I define sex as: The union of the sex organs of two sexually reproducing animals for insemination and subsequent internal fertilization.

So yes, I don’t actually consider said union when there is the presence of any form of birth control to be sex, either.

The word sex originated to describe the act which brought about reproduction. It’s almost exclusively used that way in animals. While humans and a select few other animals do it for fun, too, in general I view the “fun” aspect of sex to simply be a part of the natural evolution of a species in order to promote reproduction.

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
In my experience both on the internet and in life in general, very few people are genuinely what I would define as “vehemently anti-christian.” In my experience most of the ones who are have significant personal problems and I think their anti-Christianity is an outlet for a lot of internalized rage.

I disagree completely and the sales of the books by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens ans Sam Harris(?) prove it. It is one thing when people with ridiculous beliefs go about their daily lives while doing no real harm. It is quite another when the Catholic Church for reasons of its own continues to enforce the no birth control rule down the throats of an impoverished and overpopulated continent. It is just as bad when it continues to defend no-sex priesthood and keeping women from becoming priests both of which might cut down on the incidence of child molestation. And it is positively criminal for the assets of these churches to end up in the hands of attorneys defending these criminals (molesters.) I can still remeber how proud I was as a Catholic when Kennedy was elected president. He was quite a Catholic wasn’t he. Well at least he didn’t ask some imaginary god what to do before he decided to invade a country. He just did it presumably with the appropriate planning. On the other hand when it didn’t work he acknowledged the mistake and moved on. Christians and Muslims and other true believers are destroying this planet and I don’t hear word one from “good” Christians and “Muslims” etc. attacking them.

Ah, okay, I getcha. Kind of interesting to think that by this definition, I have never had sex! I am a Martin-Hyde-virgin! :slight_smile:

I would quibble with the term “do it for fun”, though. Remember, as the Master noted, non-human animals “always do it for fun”. A few non-human animals engage in mating behavior when they are not reproductively fertile, but all of them mate because they feel an instinctive desire to (or because their mate physically forces them to), not because they are deliberately trying to reproduce.

By your definition, infertile animals who mate without producing offspring have not actually had sex, even if they’re going through exactly the same motions from exactly the same instinctive desires as other members of their species whose mating does produce offspring.

What exactly the sources this estimation is based on are I do not know, but I remember him as having been born prior to 10 AD and being most active in the forties and fifties. The “external links” section of his Wikipedia article agree with my memory.

Defining something by yourself is somewhat like trying to play an entire league season of baseball with only yourself.

Perhaps you could explain that to my dog and his life partner, Stuffed Lion.

Suffice to say, I think you’re generally wrong in the animal kingdom to: I’ve never heard biologists describe homosexual sex in animals as anything other than sex.

So, I guess Clinton was right when he said he didn’t have sexual relations with, that woman. He had sexually stimulating acts. Right? :wink:

I have no problem or quarrel with people who simply lack a belief in God, Gods, a God, don’t use the word “God” to refer to anything the consider to exist, etc etc…

Where I get crossways with atheists is when they start up with what I think of as “hard atheism”: the assertion that nothing exists except the physically concrete and whatever objectively discernable energy-states it may possess as properties; the assertion that the explanation of anything and everything is prior causation, with all other explanatory models or understandings being illusions that are themselves attributable to prior causality; the dismissal not merely of “God” but all philosophical abstractions as artifacts of the mind’s blank-slate receptivity + the location of the individual harboring those abstractions in cultural time and space; absolute determinism, whether biological determinism or social determinism; the denial of the existence not merely of “God the creator” but of creativity entirely, the denial of intentionality, the denial of the capacity to cause, because the cause of everything is the state of everything in the moment preceding.

It is an atheism that essentially says “You aren’t here”. It says the consciousness you think you have is an artifact of neurochemistry, executing various trajectories in an environment dictated by causal determinism. The neurochemistry includes, of course, the matrix of neurochemical responses to external stimulation (the famous five senses, plus things like presence or absence of nutritional food, etc), but all those external phenomena are also explicable as the consequences of prior events.

Why (in case it’s not intrinsically & compellingly obvious) does it piss me off so?

First off, to an increasing extent in philosphy and physics, and also as a long-present perspective within religious (if not necessarily western/christian) thought, there is and have been ways of stepping beyong the simple binary opposition of causal determinism and volition. There’s no intrinsic reason, in other words, to seize on the phrases and vocabularies that stress only the mechanical and deterministic aspects of reality. Just because reality can be described ONE way, accurately, doesn’t mean it can’t also be described ANOTHER way, accurately, and on this level in particular the single description provided by causal determinism is insufficient and demonstrably so. (You don’t think so? Let’s see you go a week without acting on the assumption that you are a creature of free will with choices to make, and that you possess volitional thought and control over your actions…)

So a choice has been made, a selection of one way of looking at the world, an emphasis at the expense of other possible perspectives on reality and life, perspectives which do not intrinsically require Invisible Pink Unicorns for their validity, or respect for homeopathy or ESP or horoscopes… although I suppose they do reopen that whole hallway of closed doors for reëvaluation if the doors were slammed shut for lack of empirical evidence.

It’s a choice that embraces the descriptions and understandings that make us most powerless. (You can’t usefully have an effect on your environment if you are already totally caused by your environment. At best you can be a puppet of forces already in play within your environment, those already being caused by prior circumstance as well, just as everything else is).

It’s a choice that ridicules thought. Once you’ve been told and convinced that your deepest and most heartfelt feelings and insights and cogitations are actually just the momentum of prior causation on several different levels having their way with your neurons, you’ve been effectively alienated from your own mental production. It ain’t yours anymore.

It’s a choice that shrugs and says nothing matters. It’s the old game of switching Martin Luther King and Adolf Hitler at birth and observing each to take the role of he with whom he was switched (the social determinism model), or transferring the mental state of Martin Luther King into the body of Adolf Hitler and vice versa and observing each to take the role of he with whom he was switched (the biological determinsim mode). The ugly part of the game is the covert assertion that your assessment that Adolf Hitler’s way of being in the world was somehow problematic or less desirable than Martin Luther King’s is itself an artifact of your location in cultural time and space and/or your biological makeup: you can defend your premises until your typing fingers hurt, but gee you only hold to your precepts and priorities and judgments as a consequence of factors that determined you; and there’s no place you can go to for an objective moral assessment. Ain’t none. Nothing is right or wrong, there are only sequences of causes to explain why you happen to think this or that is right or wrong.

Now, having said all that, I want to stress that those observations aren’t WRONG, they’re just incomplete (and politically/socially/philosophicall loaded; choosing those perspectives is a non-neutral CHOICE). Science has given us many techniques and toys derived from thinking of the world as caused by its immediate prior state.

Look at yon swimming pool. Measure its length if you will. Use meters or feet or cubits, I don’t care. Got a number? OK, is there any portion of the water in the swimming pool that isn’t measured within that length parameter? No, the water of the swimming pool contains not a water-molecule that isn’t properly delineated by the length. It’s at zero or it’s at 13 or it’s at 17.19145 or whatever.

Does that make width wrong? I could measure the pool’s width. It actually has width. I could be oblivious to length and act like by having described all the water in the pool according to where it is on my width-line, I’ve told you everything you need to know about the water in the pool. I could make fun of you LENGTH people. I would be wrong. But I would also be right.

So we get all enlightened and embrace each other’s perspectives and the water in the pool is described equally and jointly by the confluence of length and width. And in our sophistication and the precision of our grid-map equations, we can sure make fun of that guy who came in talking about “DEPTH”, right?

Hard atheists piss me off because they’re so fucking sure they’ve got the world knocked down (as Jim Morrison once said) into a plastic box, and anyone who begs to differ is obviously and totally wrong, Ockham’s razor says their description of reality hits all the water molecules so anything else is superfluous, imaginary, or delusional, if not all three.

There’s another swimmer here who says everything in the swimming pool is a consequence of TIME, can you believe that?

Actually, although there are a few claims that come up with different numbers, most studies tend to indicate that the percentage of molesting Catholic priests is pretty consistent with the percentage of molesting ministers in other denominations. Marriage and having one’s own children does not seem to reduce the percentage of molestors, at all.

Okay, my beef with atheism is now that there doesn’t seem to be a standard definition of “hard atheism”.

(BTW, Lib, is your symbolic notation maybe backwards there? Doesn’t “~BG” mean “not belief in God” and “B~G” “belief in not God”? Wouldn’t the first be “soft” and the second “hard”, by your terminology?)

I think that’s probably true. It may possibly do additional damage to have grown up harboring an understanding of a PRIEST as above-and-beyond sex stuff (and alongside of that, to have been rasied in a relig perspective that says, covertly at least, that sexuality is somethng that the holiest of people at least manage to put aside) and then the dude molests you, compared to having grown up harboring an understanding of a MINISTER who may have a spouse, and if not is assumed to be susceptible to the desire for one (and therefore sex and sexuality is not QUITE as condemned as something that holy people rise above and get beyond).

I was not raised Catholic so I’m extrapolating from what folks who were so raised have told me about the experience. There’s no questioning that Protestantism can be rather viciously against sexuality, and I can readily imagine that being molested by one 's minister could be every bit as traumatic.

Haven’t you heard? Martin Hyde is, in fact, Bill Clinton!
I hate the term ‘Atheist’. How can I be against something that isn’t there? A better word for what I am is ‘Adelusional’. Call me that all you want.

Even as an atheist I find the Catholic priest = pedophile slur to be irritating. To some degree it’s a self-inflicted wound but the scandal is not that there is an extraordinary likelihood for priests to be offenders but that the Church protected so many of the ones it knew about. I’m not a believer but I still cringe at a lot of the cheap shots taken at priests, not just by antitheists but even by some Protestant Christians (who see it as an excuse to villify Catholicism).

Even in pop culture it’s become a cliche. In the movie The Departed, for instance, which I enjoyed immensely, there is still a scene where Jack Nicholson has a bit of a confrontation with a priest, and – surprise surprise – calls him out on having molested children.

Like I said before, a lot of it is self-inflicted, but enough is enough. The vast majority of priests are not pedophiles. Some of them are very compassionate, interesting and intelligent people who don’t deserve to get tarred with that brush.

Oh, and I don’t believe for a second that celibacy turns people into pedophiles. Pedophiles are just attracted to jobs and positions which give them proximity, access and authority over children.

The prefix “A” doesn’t mean “against,” it means “without.”

If you were to dramatize the events of the New Testament, Paul doesn’t come onstage until Jesus’s final exit (unless you count Paul’s Damascus Road experience as an appearance of Jesus), but their lifetimes overlapped. Paul did meet the Apostle Peter and, if I remember correctly, James the brother* of Jesus.

*or half-brother or whatever he was

‘Without’ works just as well.

This is all correct (and Priceguy was right too). Paul’s life overlapped with Jesus (Paul was around 15 years younger than Jesus) but he never met Jesus before the crucifixion. He did (according to both his own letters and to Acts) meet the leaders of the Jesus movement in Jerusalem (called the “Pillars”) who were Peter, James and John.

I wasn’t necessarily saying that allowing priests to marry would eliminate pedophilia, nor would allowing women to be priests. What it probably would do is to eliminate the need to keep pedophiles in the profession, something the church, for whatever reason, seems determined to do and it would encourage more people to become priests for the right reasons.
Also I don’t really mean to say that this does not happen in the jewish faith, the Muslim faith, the Mormon faith (although for some reasons I just can’t see a Buddhist doing it) etc. etc. etc but it is so well documented in the Catholic religion that there can be no argument about its existence. (As far as being tired of priests taking all the heat for this - if you can’t do the time etc.)
I also was not saying that the pedophilia itself was the biggest crime here. I agree completely that coverups and excuses are for more serious and blameworthy. I have no doubt that these pedophiles are sick and need help and I don’t blame the religion for their presence, I only blame it for the ease with which they become priests and the tolerance of the behaviour. Happily both are decreasing, but not because of any particularly noteworthy characteristic of the religion or its managers, but rather because of public outrage and finacial penalties.

Cervaise was right it is going swimmingly isn’t it?

Yeah, me too. I’ve gotta be the only virgin who’s experienced orgasm (both my own and others’) with about 2500 people.

Fuck.