What are your main beefs with Christianity?

Great Debates
41

RT–ok, I suppose, but why is it Xians who are the ones who feel this urge? I can’t think of any other religion that has tried to force itself on me–and I used to be an Xian! I’ve yet to meet a Jewish person or a Muslim who not only wants to speak of their faith, but will tell me mine is wrong from the get-go. Surely Jesus did not say, “go forth and piss off as many people as you can”? Heh.
Here’s a question to throw out there: What if you have been doing(or assuming that you’ve been doing) His will (so to speak) and yet that has gone unappreciated or even unacknowledged not only by those who matter to you personally, but by those whom you have been helping?

How are we know if and when we are doing His will at all?
I have no problem with being a Deist, but the god in question must be an impersonal force, not a half human/half divine creature. Faith can tell me to believe despite logic saying otherwise, but this is not a question of faith for me. This is a question of either accepting an odd and in many ways wrongly wrought view of the universe or accepting a simple force for good that is not always stronger than the negative forces humans wreak.

42

This was originally a rather long post specifically to Revenant Threshold so I decided to PM him rather than hijack the thread. It was in regards to opening doors in both reason and faith and whether there was virtue in such.

43

[QUOTE=Anaamika]
My biggest beef is proselytization. I don’t care what anybody believes, but when they have to go off into other countries and convert the local populace into their beliefs, it makes me mad. No one has ever given me a satisfactory reason why proselytization is morally correct.

If Christians didn’t try to convert others I would probably be a hell of a lot more OK with it.
[/QUOTE]

What’s so bad about this? It’s not like missionaries are forcing people at gunpoint to say things they don’t sincerely believe. It’s just talking to people, exposing them to new beliefs, which perhaps they come to voluntarily accept. It’s nothing worse than what goes down on the SDMB every day (well, except for the part where people actually change their beliefs :slight_smile: ).

44

[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
What’s so bad about this? It’s not like missionaries are forcing people at gunpoint to say things they don’t sincerely believe. It’s just talking to people, exposing them to new beliefs, which perhaps they come to voluntarily accept. It’s nothing worse than what goes down on the SDMB every day (well, except for the part where people actually change their beliefs :slight_smile: ).
[/QUOTE]

Someone could defend telemarketing with pretty much the same words.

Invent a problem. Invent a solution. Classic sales.

45

[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
What’s so bad about this? It’s not like missionaries are forcing people at gunpoint to say things they don’t sincerely believe. It’s just talking to people, exposing them to new beliefs, which perhaps they come to voluntarily accept. It’s nothing worse than what goes down on the SDMB every day (well, except for the part where people actually change their beliefs :slight_smile: ).
[/QUOTE]

Now, and in this part of the world. Muslims are killing people who don’t share their beliefs regularly in this day and age. Christians were doing the same not too long ago, and the spread of Democracy has become the new Western crusade replacing Christianity as the calling card. People murder one another in the name of spreading an ideology all day long, somewhere in the world.

46

[QUOTE=mswas]
Now, and in this part of the world. Muslims are killing people who don’t share their beliefs regularly in this day and age. Christians were doing the same not too long ago, and the spread of Democracy has become the new Western crusade replacing Christianity as the calling card. People murder one another in the name of spreading an ideology all day long, somewhere in the world.
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Killing people is objectionable on its own grounds, but it’s not the missionary aspect of it, in itself, that’s evil. I didn’t get the impression that Anaamika was decrying a particular flavor of murder, just the perceived scourge of conversion.

47

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
RT–ok, I suppose, but why is it Xians who are the ones who feel this urge? I can’t think of any other religion that has tried to force itself on me–and I used to be an Xian! I’ve yet to meet a Jewish person or a Muslim who not only wants to speak of their faith, but will tell me mine is wrong from the get-go. Surely Jesus did not say, “go forth and piss off as many people as you can”? Heh.
[/quote]
I would imagine it’s partially because of location. There’s just more Christians there (assuming Midwest is Midwest USA).

With regard to Judaism in particular, I seem to remember that it’s not as simple. I dimly recall that the idea is that interested people should seek conversion out, not the other way around - but I could be confusing it with another religion, and even if i’m right it could just be an idea by one particular style of faith. Plus with Islam there’s the problem that the Qur’an is only the Qur’an if in Arabic; it’s somewhat trickier (I would imagine) to make pamphlets when any translation is accepted as not the true word of him upstairs.

48

Basic Christianity does not bother me much. It has morphed into something very different from its teaching’s now though. It has become divisive if not dangerous. I want the old days when the religious people in America marched against wars instead of being among it’s most ardent backers. Gimme that old time religion.

49

[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
What’s so bad about this? It’s not like missionaries are forcing people at gunpoint to say things they don’t sincerely believe. It’s just talking to people, exposing them to new beliefs, which perhaps they come to voluntarily accept. It’s nothing worse than what goes down on the SDMB every day (well, except for the part where people actually change their beliefs :slight_smile: ).
[/QUOTE]

Erasing all traces of indigenous culture and habits and replacing it with uptight Puritanical Christian values? Offering medicine or tools in exchange for indoctrination? Trading food for Christian salvation? Introducing shame and sin to people who formerly had no concept that nudity = sin? (Every time I see a Vinnie Barbarino t-shirt on a pygmy child I want to weep.)

Is that missionary work or extortion?

50

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
Erasing all traces of indigenous culture and habits and replacing it with uptight Puritanical Christian values?
[/QUOTE]

Setting aside the loaded language (“uptight Puritanical Christian values”) for now…

Since when did missionary work amount to “erasing all traces of indigenous culture and habits”? Missionaries attempt to get people to voluntarily convert to their religious views. How in the world does this amount to wiping out all traces of their indigenous culture?

Or are you honestly suggesting that these people have absolutely no culture apart from their religious worldviews?

51

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I would imagine it’s partially because of location. There’s just more Christians there (assuming Midwest is Midwest USA).

[/QUOTE]

I also think (and I could be very wrong) that to be Jewish, your mother has to have been (but then how do they handle converts? never mind…). So, the Q’uran is not translated? That would stymie things. But since I believe that all the translations of the Bible have (if anything) muddied the waters, so to speak, no translation is probably a good thing.

Indistinguishable-
There may well be missionaries out there who only talk their faith and don’t tie modern conveniences to conversion, but I don’t know of any(which is no proof at all, I know). When my (sort of) church goes down to Central America–it is to build churches, not schools, not homes, not businesses etc. Not Catholic churches, either, but prostestant ones. It may well be done without malicious intent (and I think most of it is without malice), but it happens. Combine it with the globalization of industry, and indigenous peoples soon lose their own technology and become dependent on our’s. (whether they become dependent on our white Jesus is another matter–but they do become dependent on our charitable offerings).

There is such a thing as cultural creep as well (probaly not a formal term)–the dominant society imbues its ideals and social forms on the “lesser” culture. And they can do this all the while protesting they are only there to spread the Word. Sadly, historically, missionaries weren’t just there to spread the Word; local customs were seen as evil and blasphemous, as well as dirty and improper.

Empires were built on the notion that one culture was superior to another-especially if that culture was not white: The British and India; USA and the native Americans; The Dutch and South Africa etc.

I have lost my old Miss Manner’s book, but in there was a quote that I will now badly mangle. It said something to the effect that when seating dinner guests, that an African religious leader answered only to God, but that an English duke took precedence over said leader in places of honor at table. You can say that was all long ago (IMS, Ms Manners was referring to a Victorian era guide), but it did exist, and still does, if not to that degree.

52

[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
Are they innately primitive, to be pitied for their limited abilities to reason relative to the rest of the human race? A man comes to me with a picture-making-box, I say “Wow, you have a picture-making-box. That’s amazing!” He then says to me that someone in the desert died and was resurrected two millennia ago, and also that I shouldn’t have sex before marriage (or whatever teachings it is you’re upset about); I say to him “How do you know that? What’s your reasoning?”. He gives me whatever his reasons are, and I can ponder them on their own merits and decide how I feel about it. If I happen to think his having a picture-making-box makes all of his beliefs that much more likely to be true, then I can hardly blame anyone else for the incorrectness this introduces into my belief system.

[/QUOTE]

The ability to reason is directly impacted by the limits of one’s environment. Primitive cultures have not had access to the gradual increase of technological advances that we have had. They have no frame of reference for which to compare a camera to. To hand a previously uncontacted tribe a photograph of their faces could be the equivalent to handing you a time machine.

Small, isolated, primitive cultures are easy to convert/exploit because of their limited exposure to the modern world.

[QUOTE=JThunder]
Setting aside the loaded language (“uptight Puritanical Christian values”) for now…

Since when did missionary work amount to “erasing all traces of indigenous culture and habits”? Missionaries attempt to get people to voluntarily convert to their religious views. How in the world does this amount to wiping out all traces of their indigenous culture?

Or are you honestly suggesting that these people have absolutely no culture apart from their religious worldviews?
[/QUOTE]

Setting aside the Christian habit of forcing natives to cover up their “naughty bits” for now…

Assuming you are a practicing Christian: Which parts of your daily habits and culture are exempt from Christian influence? Your style of dress? Your sex life? Your marriage? Your medical care? Your choice of food? Your marriage and method of child rearing? Are your celebrations, milestones, and holidays free from religious influence?

How is Christianity anything but all encompassing and pervasive?

53

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

There is such a thing as cultural creep as well (probaly not a formal term)–the dominant society imbues its ideals and social forms on the “lesser” culture. And they can do this all the while protesting they are only there to spread the Word. Sadly, historically, missionaries weren’t just there to spread the Word; local customs were seen as evil and blasphemous, as well as dirty and improper.

[/QUOTE]

eleanorigby, the concept of “cultural creep” is a good point to make. It is likely that commercial ventures would lead to the eradication of indigenous peoples and their environments eventually independently of Christian missionary work.

While Christian missionaries make no apologies for replacing native religious customs and habits with their own; they are *not * solely responsible for the religious and cultural homogenizing of the planet.

54

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Maybe. I seem to have this effect on some Christians. Maybe they see me as a challenge. I actually enjoy talking to the ones who are really devoted (which is not the same as the ones who are just very “religious,” if you know what I mean). I gotta warn you, though, as much as I enjoy talking about religion in general and the Bible in particular, I’m not a candidate for conversion. I think I was born without the “God gene.” For what it’s worth, I don’t try to deconvert anybody either.
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Challenge ? I think not . You know what you know and I know what I know. I shared it with you . It wasn’t like my mommy and daddy taught it to me. I would never argue what you know with you .I don’t know how you came by it but what would be the point ? I am only honored to have the privilege to share the same ground with you . I know even through my passion you could see the truth as I believe it. I don’t doubt your truth any less . This is what makes you and I students in the reality of life on this world. The other’s can deal their hate and their lies but you and I stand together, if even we are divided , because we both know truth and what is right . Do I not speak the truth ?

55

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
because we both know truth and what is right . Do I not speak the truth ?
[/QUOTE]

I hope so.

56

Beau–Right. Nowadays, especially, the two go hand in hand.

Perhaps the Peace Corps is an example where this doesn’t happen (don’t much about the PC).

And let’s not forget the ultimate Christian crossover: taking the pagan holidays and making them Xian. Eggs and bunnies at Easter? (even the term Easter itself); greens and yule logs and elves at “Christmas”… nothing like warping common culture to reinforce power. It’s worked for centuries for Christianity. I’ll bet we’d find similarities with Islam, Judaism and Hinduism, too.

57

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Challenge ? I think not .[…]The other’s can deal their hate and their lies but you and I stand together, if even we are divided , because we both know truth and what is right . Do I not speak the truth ?
[/QUOTE]

in the immortal words of Tatu, “The plane!”? (please tell us where the plane comes in. Please?)
What truth? Whose truth? Did I miss something here?

58

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
in the immortal words of Tatu, “The plane!”? (please tell us where the plane comes in. Please?)

[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the double post, but I missed the timeout. I have mixed up my threads re the plane reference. Please disregard. Carry on.

59

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I hope so.
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Well if you don’t want to share it here there is always the PM system . It will still be the same truth wont it? Like I said , before and now , thier is no changing my mind about it but please tell me ! Don’t think I wont accept it from you !

60

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
The ability to reason is directly impacted by the limits of one’s environment. Primitive cultures have not had access to the gradual increase of technological advances that we have had. They have no frame of reference for which to compare a camera to. To hand a previously uncontacted tribe a photograph of their faces could be the equivalent to handing you a time machine.

Small, isolated, primitive cultures are easy to convert/exploit because of their limited exposure to the modern world.
[/QUOTE]

Show me a time machine, a teleporter, antigravity. Do your worst. I’ll think it’s all really awesome; I’ll wonder how it works. I’ll think you have access to all kinds of technology beyond my own. But I won’t suddenly start unthinkingly accepting everything you say, about the afterlife, about morality, about whatever. I’ll still ask you for your reasoning, and consider the matter on my own.

And if, perhaps, others are less discerning in their beliefs and morality, well, the beliefs and morality they end up with as a result are primarily their fault; others may be partly responsible, but to not nearly the same extent culpable.