Because the Christians are the ones making the assertion that something exists.
No, we can explain it just fine, and just did. Millions of Americans believe in something false, because it is a popular false belief. But them believing it doesn’t make it true; prayer never, ever makes anyone heal faster.
That’s just a slander against unbelievers, and self delusion on the part of the believers. They love to claim that atheists convert on their deathbeds and so forth; probably in part because the dead atheist can’t contradict them. And yelling “god” when hurt isn’t any more meaningful than yelling “fuck”; cultural conditioning as said, that’s the sort of thing people blurt out when hurt or startled.
A testimony claim of healing supported by a doctor is EVIDENCE. I even posted a story with X-ray images showing the healing, but no that’s not good enough. Medical records wouldn’t be good enough. Nothing will satisfy you because you simply can’t accept the possibility of divine healing. As I said before, there is always a way to deny that ANY event ever occured like the landing on the moon.
This is the kind of crap that I find infuriating about atheists. You haven’t even been to the conference and already laugh it off. It proves just how intellectually dishonest atheists really are once you get past the smoke and mirrors.
From my personal experiences, I find most medical treatments not that effective. They certainly didn’t fix my back pain. I was healed spiritually when I was able to let go of the fear of chronic pain. Most treatments involve drugs that can cause known and unknown side effects. Even ibuprofen can damage the liver. All surgeries carry a degree of risk. A person with nerve pain will quickly learn just how powerless neurologists are. They rely on EMG testing which can give false readings.
They certainly couldn’t do jack for my cubital tunnel syndrome, and absolutely nothing for my tinnitus.
Exams and tests can be inffective. Doctors nowdays are not even sure if clogged arteries are a direct cause of a heart attack event. MRI’s can give false readings, and doctors are just now even addressing the reality of chronic pain with few options to treat it.
Sorry, but atheists offer little hope for a patient.
Praying doesn’t help sick people get better. The fact that people think it helps is a matter of opinion. I can understand why people find it comforting, but that doesn’t mean it does anything.
Every time someone who is arguing with you posts a cite, you say it doesn’t count because it’s more bias from the nasty atheists. Why shouldn’t you do the work? You’re the one who has said your deity is real and heals people and that evolution can’t explain complexity and so on.
And atheists are boldly claiming that it is 100% wrong without even bothering to fully investigate the claims.
See above. There are countless reports that demonstrate that prayer certainly aided in the healing. Simply stating that it’s not true without any backing support for your claim is completely baseless and intellectually dishonest.
Because you are in the minority. If you are going to convice the majority that we are all suffering from mental delusions including highly intelligent Christian doctors, the onus is on you to freaking support your assertion for once.
You hear that, medical science? It’s time to give up. GEEPERS is not convinced you work. Sorry, people with cancer and kidney transplant patients! We’re going to go in another direction. You might find it a little medieval, but you’ll thank us later.
Medical science is not an atheist thing, of course. Most religious believers are smart enough to turn to medical science when they are sick, and so are most atheists. How does that play into the ‘if enough people believe it it can’t be wrong’ argument? The fact that doctors can’t cure every single illness in every person doesn’t mean something else works better than medicine - in fact the evidence says prayer doesn’t work as well as treatment. (No surprise there since prayer doesn’t involve treating the actual illness.) The fact that some people get better after being prayed for doesn’t mean prayer caused the healing, and you have to be careful about drawing conclusions based on individual cases.
That has no bearing on the strength of my argument, or yours. That’s a copout.
I didn’t say anybody was delusional. On the other hand I did post a cite from a study demonstrating that prayer does not help sick people get better. I notice you didn’t respond to that. Do you have a rebuttal?
It’s ironic that you’re calling basic logic a “copout” and claiming that inventing things that are unfalsifiable and unprovable is “doing all the work”.
Persecution complex aside and ignoring the customary vapid snark, of course we’re not saying we “can’t explain it”. We’re saying, yet again, that the null hypothesis holds sway and unless and until it is refuted, it stands. I also pointed out, and you seem not to understand, that the badwaggon fallacy is an error in logic, not success.
Typical goalpost shifting. Now all the mystical revelations and miracles attributed to Islam don’t count because you don’t hear much (are you listening?) about “divine healings”? Of course, the answer really is just that you’re not listening and you’re privileging your own religion above others, for obvious reasons.
So, when will you begin investigating Islam for conversion? Lots of stories about it…
You posted an article from something called “Assist Ministries”, which is about as plausible as me posting an anti-religion article from a website called Godmustbekilled.com.
Because its never actually happened; whenever there’s a serious investigation of such claims, they turn out to be fraud.
Nonsense. Religion has thousands of years of history of being relentlessly wrong. It’s a hallmark of religion that it’s wrong. Why should I take seriously the idea that this out of all the millions of other false claims made by believers will actually be true?
In other words, you fooled yourself into thinking you are healed because it fits your religious fantasies. That doesn’t mean that you are healed; it means that your religion it hurting you even more by driving you away from real medical treatment. Faith healing is an especially evil form of fraud.
It doesn’t have to be that, of course. Chronic pain comes and goes spontaneously for lots of people, and that’s one of the things that makes it hard to treat - we don’t know when the pain just goes away and when it is responding to an effective therapy.
What you hear about Islam is not correct (out of curiosity- where do you get your information about Islam?). Many Muslims believe in the efficacy of prayer for healing- as well as supernatural healing: here, here, here, and here.
Why should I take your information as more valid than Muslims? There are certainly many millions of Muslims that would tell me that their prayer is the most effective.
GEEPERS- many members of pretty much every religion believe that their religion is the true path, and have the same sorts of stories of the efficacy of prayer, divine revelation, even miracles that you claim for Christianity. They have the same sort of personal experiences- including of demonic influences and divine grace that you have had.
How am I supposed to sort them out? Why should I not just treat all these claims the same?
I, for one, am curious why, if medical science is a sham and faith healing is obviously effective, why these highly intelligent Christian doctors bother going to medical school in the first place. Why don’t they simply devote their time to creating the largest possible prayer group?
Also, the double standard from the evolution thread has again reared its head. The fact that we don’t have 100% perfect knowledge of medical science means that the field is totally worthless, but claims of healing resulting from magic cannot be questioned.
I get the sense GEEPERS doesn’t have a lot of familiarity with any viewpoint on religious issues other than his particular version of Christianity, whatever denomination that is. To the extent he’s familiar with other faiths or atheism or anything else, it’s only from the standpoint of his own religion: other religions are just cultural, nobody makes the claims Christianity makes about healing and salvation and miracles, atheists are hopeless and want to attack religious people, the list goes on. I’m not saying this to be insulting, GEEPERS - your views reflect a lack of unbiased information on the subject. I can understand maybe you don’t feel the need to look very far since you know what the truth is, but you really don’t have any kind of understanding of what other people think about these issues.
I think GEEPERS has been asked that before and I don’t remember a solid answer.
Typical atheist bias copout So it’s not worth registering and going to a conference with well regarded doctors from around the world presenting scientific evidence for healing simply because the organization is Christian. Ok, put your head back in the sand then.
We are suppose to take your word that it never happened? What an insult to the people who experienced a miracle. Am I suppose to believe that the Titanic never sank simply because you say it never happened?
Wrong about what? Isn’t that equivalent to Argumentum ad populum? If you are right that religion has been wrong for thousand of years, that does not automatically invalidate any present of future religious experiences.
I see, so my thoughts in my mind created a physical change in my body. How does that happen again exactly? As for real medical treatment, it’s hardly effective for back pain.
You would start by accepting that there is a real supernatural realm out there. There are countless stories of supernatural experiences. Everyone that has a seen a ghost, for example. I’ve had friends who witnessed things flying in a room and a radio turning on and off by itself. Science can’t explain such things.
I am agnostic, not atheistic, but people call me an atheist nevertheless.
For me, it started when I was around 13 and trying to get answers to some questions that I had about my Christian beliefs. In trying to find those answers, I discovered that all religions are nothing more than massive con games.
I never claimed it is a sham or totally worthless. I’m claming that complete faith in the knowledge of man really doesn’t offer much hope. Most treatments carry a degree of risk so it’s really just a gamble. They can’t even guarantee a patient that he will be 100% back to normal after a broken bone. You could have limited mobility or develop chronic pain in the joints. And if the treatment fails, the patient has absolutely no hope from an atheist doctor.
I rather be treated by a Christian doctor who prays for wisdom and a steady hand in surgery!