What atheists think, and why (in re: GEEPERS)

Great Debates
101

My reading of GEEPERS’ posts isn’t that he (or she) will accept an apology or an admission of mistake on the part of an atheist on any subject as sufficient to engage in good faith conversation with one; rather, the apologies and admissions of mistake have to be on the subject of the existence of his specific deity. “I thought Adam and Eve lived the lifespan of a typical human being” is clearly insufficient; “You’re right, I was a fool to not believe as you do” is the only thing it seems he will accept.

It’s kind of like the thread with the ridiculous criticisms of evolutionary theory; even when it was a Christian pointing out that evidence of evolution is obvious, GEEPERS said they were putting forth “atheist” arguments.

102

Mmm, I’ll play:
Why are you an atheist?
Because the very concept of deity is worse than wrong - it’s incoherent.
People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn’t that suggest they’re on to something?
I deny the premise that that many (unrelated) religions were all that similar, but even so, they’re human creations, so that’s not surprising, we tend not to be stunningly original thinkers in our other creative endeavours, why should mythmaking be any different?
Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?
No
Are you angry at god?
No. I’d oppose him with all my might if he existed as depicted in the Bible, but since that’s a fairy tale, no, I’m no angrier at god than I am at Lex Luthor.
**Do you hate religion?**Do you think religion is evil?
Not as such. I think some organized religious groups are, and some other sects are at least bad or naughty, but religion per se? Naah. It’d make it hard to be a semi-Buddhist if I thought that.
Do you think religious people are stupid?
This is the tough one. Yes, I think they’re stupid when it comes to their religion, but it’s not a reflection of overall intelligence. Perhaps “have a mental blind spot” is a better phrase than “stupid”
Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?
No. I think it should be critically examined and not accorded special treatment, though.

103

Well, when a Christian does that, then GEEPERS says they are not a “real” Christian. Which is a logical fallacy, as has been pointed out.

Oh, sorry there GEEPERS. Looks like I have insulted you by pointing out that your argument there consists of a classic case of “No True Scotsman”. So sorry to have drawn this to your attention. How rude of me.

104

This. Sam Harris’ book “The End of Faith” made an impression on me specifcally in this area. Religious beliefs have no special place or protected status in the arena of competeing ideas about life and society.

I completely support people’s right to choose thier own path when it comes to beliefs and give consideration to the unique makeup of individuals intellectually and emotionally. That said, when you come to the table or policy decisions in a shared and diverse society you have to bring something more than “My God has decreed according to my reading or the Holy Book”

It’s an idea that holds no weight and adds nothing to decisions and choices that we must make.

Why shouldn’t gays be allowed to marry? Well because the Bible says on page X … That’s nothing , it has no weight. Well the Koran says, The Gita says, The Book of Mormon says , all equally empty.

Anyone can say, well In my opinion, and then the obvious question is "OKay, what do you base that opinion on, what is the foundation of facts and reasoning that gives that opinion some substance?

“Because I think God said so” is devoid of substance as an argument.

105

I like to see a Christian admit {and some do} that they really have no way of knowing and that their beliefs are based on faith and personal opinion, and because of that , are no more valid than anyone elses. In fact in some cases , because of hard evidence contradiciting traditional beliefs , far less valid.

It’s fine if you choose to believe certain things, but IMO believers , whatever thier chosen religious pursuit, should understand and accept that their beliefs are no more valid than other religions or non believers.

What stands out to me is that the phrase “I’m a Christian” tells me nothing about the character of the individual. Believers have no advantage in thier character as human beings over non believers.

The Bible has no authority to millions of people and varying authority and interpretation even among believers. Life, and being a part of a diverse society will continue to challenge beliefs , as it should. IMO that’s part of the process of sifting the truth from superstition and myth, and discerning our priorities. Believers have to understand that there is no reason that your beliefs should recieve any deference because they are “religious” beliefs.

106

This might surprise you but I was once an atheist. Why? Well I got sick of all the literal bible freaks portraying Christians as believers in Bronze Age stories. I rejected everything to do with god and the supernatural because I was embarrassed to be put in the same camp as them. I think these people have done more for atheism than Richard Dawkings!

It was not until I studied the real messages of Christianity and understood that my scientific thoughts are compatible with the message that I returned to the flock as a non literal theist.

107

I think reading the Bible has done more for atheism than Richard Dawkins and literalists.

So what is the “real” message of Christianity?

108

Another thread mate.

109

Perhaps you might reflect on GEEPERS’ responses the next time you engage with a Fundamentalist Christian. (I say Fundamentalist Christian, to distinguish them from other self-avowed Christians. Basically, if you think that a great many who follow Jesus are not Christian, you are probably a fundamentalist. There are bad Christians of course, those with weak faith. Saying that an avid church-goer isn’t Christian though is something entirely different.)

Somehow, claims atheists make about their own beliefs are not accepted. As this agnostic sees it, only somebody with weak faith would feel threatened by another’s expression of disbelief. Add to this the martyrdom complex peculiar to a subset of Christians and we some pretty substantial cognitive blockage.

That GEEPERS presumes to call other believers semi-Christian, while simultaneously accusing others of arrogance reminds me of scripture: “…first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Plenty of Christians believe in evolution for example: Here are the participants in 2012’s evolution weekend, attended by 567 Congregations from all 50 states.

At any rate there are some concerns that might have been pre-empted in the OP. They include the following. [ul]
[li]Fighting ignorance is not a popularity contest. It’s a matter of weighing evidence, point by point.[/li][li]Some feel uncomfortable doing this in a religious context. They feel that careful and skeptical inquiry is somehow sacrilegious. Such folks may be a bad fit for this board, but I would appeal to their better natures not to seek to impose your beliefs on them, at least the ones that you refuse to defend. [/li][li] Oppression of Christians: there’s a lot of that in North Korea actually. Thousands of families are in prison because of their professed belief. But in the US, saying you find the evidence of a Supreme deity wanting really isn’t a form of repression. Right? Bearing false witness on this matter distracts us from the genuine suffering of Christians in truly oppressive states. [/li][*] [/ul]

110

I thought for a long time about replying to this thread. I don’t know if the right combination of words exists to convince GEEPERS that I’m not just lying or baiting him, but I’ll try anyway.

I am an atheist. I do not hate religion. At first, I was fascinated that people who could cling to such silly ideas can actually lead productive and healthy lives. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it’s not silly to have faith in something, and believe it to be true. In fact, every single human on the planet sees the world from a unique perspective, that doesn’t accurately reflect reality. We are more likely to accept arguments that agree with that perspective, and reject evidence against it. It’s a phenomenon that happens so frequently it has a freakin’ name.

So why should I hold it against religious people, that they have chosen to take an optimistic perspective, and are convinced that a glorious and loving God will welcome them to a perfect eternity when they die? And furthermore, why should I waste time trying to destroy that idyllic perspective? Just because I personally don’t believe it, doesn’t mean I have any obligation to convince other people to agree with me.

Anyway, I do sometimes resent religious people who are hypocrites about their professed beliefs. The religion of love, humility, peace, acceptance, charity, and sacrifice sure seems to produce a lot of egocentric, selfish, spiteful, angry, violent, intolerant people. To me, that just proves that people are pretty much the same regardless of their religious belief. Most of us can function pretty well in society, and some of us are a complete psychotic disaster that the world would be better off without. But you can’t use someone’s religious belief as a predictor of whether they’re a valuable member of the species.

Anyway, that’s my take on religious people. In general, they’re just regular people. To be honest, I can’t stand having a discussion with anyone so condescendingly smug in their self righteous opinion that they resort to demonizing the other side of the argument. You can be sure of yourself and full of confidence without being a complete asshole about it.

111

"Why are you an atheist?"
The real reason is probably because I was born in the UK, and therefore not really immersed in religious teachings from an early age. On top of that the Church of England’s religious teachings seems so wishy-washy that it’s hard to believe the vicars believe in God themselves. I’d like to think I’d be an atheist no matter what my background was, but I can’t say for sure, which makes me feel a little uncomfortable.

However I have remained an atheist even though I have discussed religion with numerous believers, listened to many debates, and read many books about religious belief, because there is quite simply nothing that has been said that can’t be explained by non-supernatural things.

I also find the ‘You’re almost an atheist, you’ve just thrown out one less god than I have’ meme very compelling. After all who believes in Zeus nowadays? Yet he was deemed just as real as the Judeo-Christian God is now.
"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"
I think I’ve always been, I’ve never believed in God or thought Jesus was the son of God, but I remember reading a Science Fiction book when I was about 8 or 9 (and I wish I could remember the title or even the story) and that was the first time I really thought about religion, and I decided then that it was all a load of rubbish designed to control people.
"Are you angry at god?"
There aren’t any gods so I can’t be angry at them. However I am slightly angry at people who can believe such rubbish and who manage to switch off their brains when it comes to religion.
"Do you hate religion?"
Yes I think I do. I know many good things have been done in the name of religion, but many bad things too. And the whole bigotry against homosexuals and women is getting pretty tiresome. I find it impossible to understand why someone like Rick Santorum is liked by anyone, and am amazed that people will vote for the xurrent American Republican Party because it’s a vote for God, when as far as I can see it’s a vote for mentally ill people. Things like that leads to me to detest religion.
"Do you think religion is evil?"
I’m not sure I believe in evil as such, of course there are terrible people and we can call them evil. If we say doing terrible things is evil then yes I do think religion is evil, because it stops people from thinking and society from changing. Some of the evil things that are currently done in the name of religion are only being done because ignorant people made up some rules thousands of years ago.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
I do, I know it’s not nice of me, and I don’t really want to think this way, but all the evidence points to people not thinking straight when it comes to religion. I listen to debates hoping that the famed religious debater will put up a good fight and say something meaningful, but it has never happened the same trite meaningless arguments are trotted out, that anyone with half a brain can see are just not helpful or true, and yet millions believe. I can’t explain it except as some form of stupidity.

I’ve met well educated people who work in jots that require logical thinking, and the ability to be sceptical and critical, yes they can turn off those skills as soon as it comes to religion. I try, but I just can’t understand it and it makes me think there must be something wrong with their brains.
"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"
No because that never works, and banning ideas is stupid. But I do think we need to work had to keep government and society secular, to find ways to teach critical thinking from an early age, and to keep religion out of schools.

People are free to believe and think whatever they want. The problem is belief in religion by enough people will inevitably lead to them wanting to put their beliefs on everyone else, and force them into government policy and the education system. That’s why I think we need militant atheists to stay alert and to ridicule and belittle religion whenever it oversteps its bounds.

112

I can’t really agree. The problem is that religion gives people a set of ideas and rules that they shouldn’t really ignore. After all they were passed down by God himself (I’m talking about the Judeo-Christian religions here as that’s what I know best). This often leads to even the most sensible person believing something bad, such as being gay is a lifestyle choice, evolution isn’t a fact, people who speak up against religion are blasphemers or disrespectful, abortion should be banned and life begins art conception. The vast majority of people who believe is these ideas do so because of their religion not because it’s logical or sensible.

I’ve met many very nice, kind, intelligent, useful people who when I’ve questioned them a bit further than most would about their religion have suddenly spouted something homophobic or anti-science that was quite shocking.

Of course there are plenty of non-religious homophobes etc., but at least they don’t think they have the power of God behind them, and it’s harder for them to find others like them that it is for someone who follows a religion that has million of believers.

From my point of view if you follow a religion you are slightly (and it may be very, very slightly) less of a useful person to society. After all I think scientists are some of the most useful people we have (and no I’m not one :)) and the vast majority of them are agnostic or atheist.

113

I’m an atheist because the notion of a god-like entity looking over and/or controlling the world is just inconceivable. Over the years I have actually ‘tried’ to renounce my brain and take on the idea of a god, but it hasn’t worked: my head doesn’t do god/s.

Nothing happened to ‘make’ me an atheist. I grew up in a family that took religiosity with a grain of salt but the option was always there to adopt a more secular life (extended family who believed in God and all of that…Evangelical Pentecostals etc). None of my immediate family chose the religious lifestyle.

I’m only angry at God for not having chosen me to be a lottery winner. :smiley:

I don’t hate religion, but I’m pissed-off at some members of religious orders who want to thrust their religious penises down my throat (metaphorically speaking of course).

Do I think religion is evil? No…the notion of ‘evil’ is a religious construct in itself, so I can’t use that word to describe religion!

But I do question the intellectual capacity of those who adhere to religious beliefs: I wouldn’t call them ‘stupid’, but I might call them ‘less-than-curious’ about the world we live in!

Should religion be banned? You can’t ‘ban’ religion. What you CAN do is give people in your community the best possible tools and information to let them make their own decisions about how to live their lives.

The best way to dump religion by the wayside is to get your babies vaccinated, give 'em wonderful health care in their infancy, chock them up with contraceptives when they hit the menarche (and maybe a year before!!), provide good pre and ante natal care for the new mums, and cancer-screening programs for the other grandmums and dads.

The better the health and education facilities you have for your citizens, the less they will need to pray to god for salvation from ill health and poverty. SIMPLE!! :smiley:

114

What about the old saying there are no atheists in a fox hole at a time when yoour but is depending on religion why do atheists call out to god

115

They figure that someone out there must be able to inculcate basic grammatical awareness.

116

Cultural conditioning and a “what could it hurt” attitude. But before we ask “why” they happen we need to establish that foxhole conversions really *do *happen.

Anecdotally, I understand that many more wounded soldiers call out for their mothers than any other exclamation.

117

Only problem is that you can’t demonstrate that it is wrong. Santa Claus has been well established as a fictional character. No one is claiming divine healing from Santa Claus. Yet, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of stories of divine healing through faith in Jesus Christ. In order to claim 100% that I’m wrong, you must personally debunk every story.

Hey, I’ll make it a bit easy for ya. Why don’t you head down to Kenya and attend this conference?

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2012/s12040072.htm

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2012/s12040050.htm

According to the article, scientific evidence will be presented proving divine healing.
Also from the article:

"According to a Newsweek poll, 84% of Americans said that ‘praying for others’ can have a positive effect on their recovery.”

How do you explain that one if I’m so wrong? Can I just heal myself by thinking good thoughts?

I am so thankful that there is a merciful God and patients can have hope of healing even when the doctors say there is none. Atheists can offer no hope. Just a strug of the shoulder and “sorry, sucks to be you, dude”.

Perhaps not evidence for you, but it’s plenty of evidence for me because it’s a real experience that happened to me. I wouldn’t necessarily immediately discount the experiences of an Odin worshiper if numerous people were reporting the same experience. In the same vein, I don’t discount the spiritual experiences of native Americans. It’s very possible that their religions are a portal to the supernatural.

118

No, that’s not how epistemology works. You have to falsify the null hypothesis, not support it.

How do we explain it? We explain it by the fact that you remain willfully ignorant of the bandwagon fallacy.

Islam has a mass of just such testimony.
When will you begin investigating conversion?
Why?

119

No I don’t; you have to provide evidence that they are true. Strong evidence, since fraud is so rampant in such cases. It’s not my responsibility to try to prove billions of negatives.

Suuuure it will. And they’ll teleport to and from the conference by prayer, too.

Simple; they are wrong too.

No.

No, atheists* can offer actual medical treatments that work, instead of tricking people into relying on faith and dying.

  • And non-murderous believers, for that matter

No, it didn’t. Neither you nor anyone else has ever been attacked by demons, because they don’t exist.

120

Typical atheist copout. How come Christians have to do all the work? lol

Translation - umm no we can’t explain it , but we still want to creat the illusion that we are intellectually superior to Christians.

Most people follow Islam as their cultural heritage, or a belief in the teachings of the Koran. I really don’t hear much if anything of supernatural or divine healings within that faith.